Discussion:
Ellen White divinely inspired
(too old to reply)
Stephen Korsman
2006-05-29 05:02:15 UTC
Permalink
Hi

The following is from the Ellen White Estate's website:

"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that her
writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and authoritative,
especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not believe that the quality
or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is different from
that of Scripture." - http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html

The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the degree to
which the Bible is inspired???

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

IC | XC
---------
NI | KA

add an s before .co.za
I. B. Wonderin
2006-05-29 06:09:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Korsman
Hi
"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that her
writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and
authoritative,
Post by Stephen Korsman
especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not believe that the quality
or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is different from
that of Scripture." - http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the degree to
which the Bible is inspired???
Yes. God isn't partial. When God speaks through the Holy Spirit , he
inspires all equally.

You have a problem with that concept?.
•R L Measures
2006-05-29 10:53:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Stephen Korsman
Hi
"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that
her
Post by Stephen Korsman
writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and
authoritative,
Post by Stephen Korsman
especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not believe that the
quality
Post by Stephen Korsman
or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is different
from
Post by Stephen Korsman
that of Scripture." - http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the degree
to
Post by Stephen Korsman
which the Bible is inspired???
Yes. God isn't partial. When God speaks through the Holy Spirit , he
inspires all equally.
You have a problem with that concept?.
• Some people might have a problem believing that African pygmies were
the result of humans having sex with chimps.
I. B. Wonderin
2006-05-29 12:32:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Stephen Korsman
Hi
"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that
her
Post by Stephen Korsman
writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and
authoritative,
Post by Stephen Korsman
especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not believe that the
quality
Post by Stephen Korsman
or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is
different
Post by Stephen Korsman
from
Post by Stephen Korsman
that of Scripture." -
http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Stephen Korsman
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the degree
to
Post by Stephen Korsman
which the Bible is inspired???
Yes. God isn't partial. When God speaks through the Holy Spirit , he
inspires all equally.
You have a problem with that concept?.
. Some people might have a problem believing that African pygmies
were
the result of humans having sex with chimps.
Yes, many do( that includes all Adventists) and some people (myself
included) see a problem with people who glory and revel in maligning
another.And then there's those who are not responsible or honest enough
verify if something is actually true before repeating it. Even Atheists
know slander is wrong, and for a Christian who reads that No liars will
enter heaven or inherit eternal life, there's no excuse for not knowing
better. I'm sure you fit in there somewhere...
Stephen Korsman
2006-05-29 18:22:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Korsman
B.
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Stephen Korsman
Hi
"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and
that
Post by Stephen Korsman
her
Post by Stephen Korsman
writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and
authoritative,
Post by Stephen Korsman
especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not believe that
the
Post by Stephen Korsman
quality
Post by Stephen Korsman
or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is
different
Post by Stephen Korsman
from
Post by Stephen Korsman
that of Scripture." -
http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Stephen Korsman
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the
degree
Post by Stephen Korsman
to
Post by Stephen Korsman
which the Bible is inspired???
Yes. God isn't partial. When God speaks through the Holy Spirit , he
inspires all equally.
You have a problem with that concept?.
. Some people might have a problem believing that African pygmies
were
the result of humans having sex with chimps.
Yes, many do( that includes all Adventists) and some people (myself
included) see a problem with people who glory and revel in maligning
another.
Come on, IB. Ellen White did teach that about the origin of non-white
people, didn't she?
Post by Stephen Korsman
And then there's those who are not responsible or honest enough
verify if something is actually true before repeating it.
I'll provide some quotes for you, then.

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

IC | XC
---------
NI | KA

add an s before .co.za
I. B. Wonderin
2006-05-29 20:28:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Stephen Korsman
B.
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Stephen Korsman
Hi
"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and
that
Post by Stephen Korsman
her
Post by Stephen Korsman
writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and
authoritative,
Post by Stephen Korsman
especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not believe that
the
Post by Stephen Korsman
quality
Post by Stephen Korsman
or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is
different
Post by Stephen Korsman
from
Post by Stephen Korsman
that of Scripture." -
http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Stephen Korsman
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the
degree
Post by Stephen Korsman
to
Post by Stephen Korsman
which the Bible is inspired???
Yes. God isn't partial. When God speaks through the Holy Spirit , he
inspires all equally.
You have a problem with that concept?.
. Some people might have a problem believing that African pygmies
were
the result of humans having sex with chimps.
Yes, many do( that includes all Adventists) and some people (myself
included) see a problem with people who glory and revel in maligning
another.
Come on, IB. Ellen White did teach that about the origin of non-white
people, didn't she?
No, Someone thought she did, and then people just kept repeating it as
if she did.

Truth is she spoke of the amalgamation of man, and animals before the
flood being a base crime.

The example she goes on to give about men is Seth's son's not keeping
separate from nonbelievers and marrying Cains apostate daughters and
being led away from God and into apostacy because of it. Which led to
the flood, and their destruction. And she also speaks of examples of
this same thing after the flood being seen in heathen nations.

Then again she speaks of amalgamation in reference to the parable of the
wheats and tares .

Same concept really.
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Stephen Korsman
And then there's those who are not responsible or honest enough
verify if something is actually true before repeating it.
I'll provide some quotes for you, then.
As you like, Obviously it's all over the hatesites..please just make
sure ---> she actually says what you claim, if you do.
Post by Stephen Korsman
God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/
IC | XC
---------
NI | KA
add an s before .co.za
Stephen Korsman
2006-05-30 05:09:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by I. B. Wonderin
"I.
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Stephen Korsman
B.
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Stephen Korsman
Hi
"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit
and
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Stephen Korsman
that
Post by Stephen Korsman
her
Post by Stephen Korsman
writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and
authoritative,
Post by Stephen Korsman
especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not believe
that
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Stephen Korsman
the
Post by Stephen Korsman
quality
Post by Stephen Korsman
or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is
different
Post by Stephen Korsman
from
Post by Stephen Korsman
that of Scripture." -
http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Stephen Korsman
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as
the
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Stephen Korsman
degree
Post by Stephen Korsman
to
Post by Stephen Korsman
which the Bible is inspired???
Yes. God isn't partial. When God speaks through the Holy Spirit
, he
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Stephen Korsman
inspires all equally.
You have a problem with that concept?.
. Some people might have a problem believing that African pygmies
were
the result of humans having sex with chimps.
Yes, many do( that includes all Adventists) and some people (myself
included) see a problem with people who glory and revel in maligning
another.
Come on, IB. Ellen White did teach that about the origin of non-white
people, didn't she?
No, Someone thought she did, and then people just kept repeating it as
if she did.
Truth is she spoke of the amalgamation of man, and animals before the
flood being a base crime.
The example she goes on to give about men is Seth's son's not keeping
separate from nonbelievers and marrying Cains apostate daughters and
being led away from God and into apostacy because of it. Which led to
the flood, and their destruction. And she also speaks of examples of
this same thing after the flood being seen in heathen nations.
Such marriages existed in the Bible, and were not condemned.

And how are such marriages seen in certain races? Not nations - races?
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Then again she speaks of amalgamation in reference to the parable of the
wheats and tares .
And in what species of plants can we see this today?
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Same concept really.
Then why did Uriah Smith claim it meant animal/human interbreeding?

Why did her husband read that, and still give the book a glowing report?

Why did she use the same reasoning as her contemporaries who did think it
was due to animal/human hybrids? Including one source that she used
herself?
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Stephen Korsman
And then there's those who are not responsible or honest enough
verify if something is actually true before repeating it.
I'll provide some quotes for you, then.
As you like, Obviously it's all over the hatesites..please just make
sure ---> she actually says what you claim, if you do.
Early Adventism supported that. Even more recent Adventists have done so.
Her husband never objected to Smith's explanation. And they distributed his
book explaining it this way.

Hard to imagine otherwise.

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

IC | XC
---------
NI | KA

add an s before .co.za
•R L Measures
2006-05-30 12:09:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by I. B. Wonderin
"I.
Post by Stephen Korsman
B.
Post by Stephen Korsman
Hi
"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that
her writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable
and authoritative, especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not
believe that
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Stephen Korsman
the quality or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White
is different
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Stephen Korsman
from that of Scripture." -
http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html
Post by Stephen Korsman
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the degree
to which the Bible is inspired???
Yes. God isn't partial. When God speaks through the Holy Spirit
, he
Post by Stephen Korsman
inspires all equally.
You have a problem with that concept?.
. Some people might have a problem believing that African pygmies
were
the result of humans having sex with chimps.
Yes, many do( that includes all Adventists) and some people (myself
included) see a problem with people who glory and revel in maligning
another.
Come on, IB. Ellen White did teach that about the origin of non-white
people, didn't she?
No, Someone thought she did, and then people just kept repeating it as
if she did.
...
• "The past was erased, the erasure was forgotten, the lie becane truth".
-- George Orwell, *1984*

As I see it,, Ellen White is the infallible popess to SDAs.
Whazit Tooyah
2006-05-29 19:55:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Korsman
B.
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Stephen Korsman
Hi
"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and
that
Post by Stephen Korsman
her
Post by Stephen Korsman
writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and
authoritative,
Post by Stephen Korsman
especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not believe that
the
Post by Stephen Korsman
quality
Post by Stephen Korsman
or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is
different
Post by Stephen Korsman
from
Post by Stephen Korsman
that of Scripture." -
http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Stephen Korsman
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the
degree
Post by Stephen Korsman
to
Post by Stephen Korsman
which the Bible is inspired???
Yes. God isn't partial. When God speaks through the Holy Spirit , he
inspires all equally.
You have a problem with that concept?.
. Some people might have a problem believing that African pygmies
were
the result of humans having sex with chimps.
Yes, many do( that includes all Adventists) and some people (myself
included) see a problem with people who glory and revel in maligning
another.And then there's those who are not responsible or honest enough
verify if something is actually true before repeating it. Even Atheists
know slander is wrong, and for a Christian who reads that No liars will
enter heaven or inherit eternal life, there's no excuse for not knowing
better. I'm sure you fit in there somewhere...
" But if there was one sin above another which called for the destruction
of
the race by the flood, it was the base crime of amalgamation of man and
beast which defaced the image of God, and caused confusion everywhere."

"Every species of animal which God had created were preserved in the ark.
The confused species which God did not create, which were the result of
amalgamation, were destroyed by the flood. Since the flood there has been
amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless
varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men."

Both quotes are cut and pasted from Spiritual Gifts pgs 64 & 75.

1. Just to clarify, Mrs. White used the term "base crime" only one other
time, to describe the act Potiphar's wife wanted to commit with Joseph.

2. Sex between humans cannot "deface the image of God," since the product of
that sex would be human "made in the image of God."

3. Confused species can only mean hybrids

4. Nowhere in scripture is can one find marriage between races called
sinful with the exception of the Israelites marrying people outside of the
covenant. There were no racial boundaries for those who wished to be under
the covenant with Israel. Once under the covenant they were free to marry.

Conclusion: If you don't believe that Mrs. White taught that sex with
another species produced animals "which defaced the image of God," then you
have been lied to and/or you are lying to yourself.

Sorry, this is one embarrassment that can't be explained away, at least with
any credibility.

Feel free to research it as I did at:
http://www.whiteestate.org/search/search.asp
This is the White Estate's web site so there is no bias against Mrs. White
here. It's quite revealing, just about everything that people claim about
her weird ideas can be verified or proved wrong. I usually read a paragraph
or two before and after a quote to be sure that she is not being taken out
of context. Usually her critics are proven to be right by her own words.

WT

WT
Stephen Korsman
2006-05-30 15:10:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
B.
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Stephen Korsman
Hi
"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and
that
Post by Stephen Korsman
her
Post by Stephen Korsman
writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and
authoritative,
Post by Stephen Korsman
especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not believe that
the
Post by Stephen Korsman
quality
Post by Stephen Korsman
or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is
different
Post by Stephen Korsman
from
Post by Stephen Korsman
that of Scripture." -
http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Stephen Korsman
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the
degree
Post by Stephen Korsman
to
Post by Stephen Korsman
which the Bible is inspired???
Yes. God isn't partial. When God speaks through the Holy Spirit , he
inspires all equally.
You have a problem with that concept?.
. Some people might have a problem believing that African pygmies
were
the result of humans having sex with chimps.
Yes, many do( that includes all Adventists) and some people (myself
included) see a problem with people who glory and revel in maligning
another.And then there's those who are not responsible or honest enough
verify if something is actually true before repeating it. Even Atheists
know slander is wrong, and for a Christian who reads that No liars will
enter heaven or inherit eternal life, there's no excuse for not knowing
better. I'm sure you fit in there somewhere...
" But if there was one sin above another which called for the destruction
of
the race by the flood, it was the base crime of amalgamation of man and
beast which defaced the image of God, and caused confusion everywhere."
"Every species of animal which God had created were preserved in the ark.
The confused species which God did not create, which were the result of
amalgamation, were destroyed by the flood. Since the flood there has been
amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless
varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men."
Both quotes are cut and pasted from Spiritual Gifts pgs 64 & 75.
1. Just to clarify, Mrs. White used the term "base crime" only one other
time, to describe the act Potiphar's wife wanted to commit with Joseph.
2. Sex between humans cannot "deface the image of God," since the product of
that sex would be human "made in the image of God."
3. Confused species can only mean hybrids
4. Nowhere in scripture is can one find marriage between races called
sinful with the exception of the Israelites marrying people outside of the
covenant. There were no racial boundaries for those who wished to be under
the covenant with Israel. Once under the covenant they were free to marry.
Conclusion: If you don't believe that Mrs. White taught that sex with
another species produced animals "which defaced the image of God," then you
have been lied to and/or you are lying to yourself.
Sorry, this is one embarrassment that can't be explained away, at least with
any credibility.
http://www.whiteestate.org/search/search.asp
This is the White Estate's web site so there is no bias against Mrs. White
here. It's quite revealing, just about everything that people claim about
her weird ideas can be verified or proved wrong. I usually read a paragraph
or two before and after a quote to be sure that she is not being taken out
of context. Usually her critics are proven to be right by her own words.
Fortunately the majority of Adventists no longer subscribe to a lot of her
nonsense. She no longer gets read from many of their pulpits the way she
used to be. Although my experience with Adventist services is quite
different, I am told even that is not so common in my country any more.
Certainly in the USA. Those who still consider her inspired are still a
strong voice, though.

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

IC | XC
---------
NI | KA

add an s before .co.za
Whazit Tooyah
2006-05-31 01:28:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
B.
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Stephen Korsman
Hi
"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and
that
Post by Stephen Korsman
her
Post by Stephen Korsman
writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and
authoritative,
Post by Stephen Korsman
especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not believe that
the
Post by Stephen Korsman
quality
Post by Stephen Korsman
or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is
different
Post by Stephen Korsman
from
Post by Stephen Korsman
that of Scripture." -
http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Stephen Korsman
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the
degree
Post by Stephen Korsman
to
Post by Stephen Korsman
which the Bible is inspired???
Yes. God isn't partial. When God speaks through the Holy Spirit , he
inspires all equally.
You have a problem with that concept?.
. Some people might have a problem believing that African pygmies
were
the result of humans having sex with chimps.
Yes, many do( that includes all Adventists) and some people (myself
included) see a problem with people who glory and revel in maligning
another.And then there's those who are not responsible or honest enough
verify if something is actually true before repeating it. Even Atheists
know slander is wrong, and for a Christian who reads that No liars will
enter heaven or inherit eternal life, there's no excuse for not knowing
better. I'm sure you fit in there somewhere...
" But if there was one sin above another which called for the destruction
of
the race by the flood, it was the base crime of amalgamation of man and
beast which defaced the image of God, and caused confusion everywhere."
"Every species of animal which God had created were preserved in the ark.
The confused species which God did not create, which were the result of
amalgamation, were destroyed by the flood. Since the flood there has been
amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless
varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men."
Both quotes are cut and pasted from Spiritual Gifts pgs 64 & 75.
1. Just to clarify, Mrs. White used the term "base crime" only one other
time, to describe the act Potiphar's wife wanted to commit with Joseph.
2. Sex between humans cannot "deface the image of God," since the product
of
Post by Whazit Tooyah
that sex would be human "made in the image of God."
3. Confused species can only mean hybrids
4. Nowhere in scripture is can one find marriage between races called
sinful with the exception of the Israelites marrying people outside of the
covenant. There were no racial boundaries for those who wished to be
under
Post by Whazit Tooyah
the covenant with Israel. Once under the covenant they were free to marry.
Conclusion: If you don't believe that Mrs. White taught that sex with
another species produced animals "which defaced the image of God," then
you
Post by Whazit Tooyah
have been lied to and/or you are lying to yourself.
Sorry, this is one embarrassment that can't be explained away, at least
with
Post by Whazit Tooyah
any credibility.
http://www.whiteestate.org/search/search.asp
This is the White Estate's web site so there is no bias against Mrs. White
here. It's quite revealing, just about everything that people claim about
her weird ideas can be verified or proved wrong. I usually read a
paragraph
Post by Whazit Tooyah
or two before and after a quote to be sure that she is not being taken out
of context. Usually her critics are proven to be right by her own words.
Fortunately the majority of Adventists no longer subscribe to a lot of her
nonsense. She no longer gets read from many of their pulpits the way she
used to be. Although my experience with Adventist services is quite
different, I am told even that is not so common in my country any more.
Certainly in the USA. Those who still consider her inspired are still a
strong voice, though.
They are a strong voice yes, but it really isn't much more than lip service
for most. Adventist pastors have to toe the line regarding Mrs. White or
risk losing their jobs and their pensions. Most just ignore the whackier
stuff she wrote and stick with the Great Controversy series of books. The
knowledge of her plagiarism is also quite widespread and on the surface
denied. Most Adventists I know seem to realize that Mrs. White really
wasn't a prophet, but because the official stance of her authority as a
prophet, they give lip service to that also.

Because of the advent of the Internet, all of this information is now
readily available and many Adventists know the truth, but don't know when,
where or how to break from the tradition they were brought up with. They
remain in the church simply because they know of no other Sabbath observing
denomination and the Sabbath is something most still believe in.

One thing I have noticed about those denominations that set themselves apart
as sabbath keepers; the gospel of Christ often takes a back seat and the
Sabbath is the central focus.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/
IC | XC
---------
NI | KA
add an s before .co.za
Stephen Korsman
2006-05-31 15:41:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
B.
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Stephen Korsman
Hi
"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and
that
Post by Stephen Korsman
her
Post by Stephen Korsman
writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and
authoritative,
Post by Stephen Korsman
especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not believe that
the
Post by Stephen Korsman
quality
Post by Stephen Korsman
or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is
different
Post by Stephen Korsman
from
Post by Stephen Korsman
that of Scripture." -
http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Stephen Korsman
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the
degree
Post by Stephen Korsman
to
Post by Stephen Korsman
which the Bible is inspired???
Yes. God isn't partial. When God speaks through the Holy Spirit , he
inspires all equally.
You have a problem with that concept?.
. Some people might have a problem believing that African pygmies
were
the result of humans having sex with chimps.
Yes, many do( that includes all Adventists) and some people (myself
included) see a problem with people who glory and revel in maligning
another.And then there's those who are not responsible or honest enough
verify if something is actually true before repeating it. Even Atheists
know slander is wrong, and for a Christian who reads that No liars will
enter heaven or inherit eternal life, there's no excuse for not knowing
better. I'm sure you fit in there somewhere...
" But if there was one sin above another which called for the destruction
of
the race by the flood, it was the base crime of amalgamation of man and
beast which defaced the image of God, and caused confusion everywhere."
"Every species of animal which God had created were preserved in the ark.
The confused species which God did not create, which were the result of
amalgamation, were destroyed by the flood. Since the flood there has been
amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless
varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men."
Both quotes are cut and pasted from Spiritual Gifts pgs 64 & 75.
1. Just to clarify, Mrs. White used the term "base crime" only one other
time, to describe the act Potiphar's wife wanted to commit with Joseph.
2. Sex between humans cannot "deface the image of God," since the product
of
Post by Whazit Tooyah
that sex would be human "made in the image of God."
3. Confused species can only mean hybrids
4. Nowhere in scripture is can one find marriage between races called
sinful with the exception of the Israelites marrying people outside of the
covenant. There were no racial boundaries for those who wished to be
under
Post by Whazit Tooyah
the covenant with Israel. Once under the covenant they were free to marry.
Conclusion: If you don't believe that Mrs. White taught that sex with
another species produced animals "which defaced the image of God," then
you
Post by Whazit Tooyah
have been lied to and/or you are lying to yourself.
Sorry, this is one embarrassment that can't be explained away, at least
with
Post by Whazit Tooyah
any credibility.
http://www.whiteestate.org/search/search.asp
This is the White Estate's web site so there is no bias against Mrs. White
here. It's quite revealing, just about everything that people claim about
her weird ideas can be verified or proved wrong. I usually read a
paragraph
Post by Whazit Tooyah
or two before and after a quote to be sure that she is not being taken out
of context. Usually her critics are proven to be right by her own words.
Fortunately the majority of Adventists no longer subscribe to a lot of her
nonsense. She no longer gets read from many of their pulpits the way she
used to be. Although my experience with Adventist services is quite
different, I am told even that is not so common in my country any more.
Certainly in the USA. Those who still consider her inspired are still a
strong voice, though.
They are a strong voice yes, but it really isn't much more than lip service
for most. Adventist pastors have to toe the line regarding Mrs. White or
risk losing their jobs and their pensions. Most just ignore the whackier
stuff she wrote and stick with the Great Controversy series of books. The
knowledge of her plagiarism is also quite widespread and on the surface
denied. Most Adventists I know seem to realize that Mrs. White really
wasn't a prophet, but because the official stance of her authority as a
prophet, they give lip service to that also.
Because of the advent of the Internet, all of this information is now
readily available and many Adventists know the truth, but don't know when,
where or how to break from the tradition they were brought up with. They
remain in the church simply because they know of no other Sabbath observing
denomination and the Sabbath is something most still believe in.
One thing I have noticed about those denominations that set themselves apart
as sabbath keepers; the gospel of Christ often takes a back seat and the
Sabbath is the central focus.
I think that for the more liberal half (whatever percentage that half is)
that is changing.

Thanks for the insights into the other side of Adventism - those I know are
not like that.

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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Amalgamation: Ellen G. White Statements
Regarding Conditions at the Time of the Flood
By Francis D. Nichol
(Adapted from his book Ellen G. White and Her Critics, pp. 306-322)

In the summer of 1864 the "Steam Press of the Seventh-day Adventist
Publishing Association" at Battle Creek, Michigan, published a
three-hundred-page Ellen G. White volume entitled "Important Facts of
Faith in Connection With the History of Holy Men of Old." This was the
third of a four-volume series carrying the general title of Spiritual Gifts.

In this work the narrative of the early history of the world is
presented, commencing with "The Creation" and carrying down to the
giving of the law to Israel, these matters, as the author states in her
Preface, having been opened to her in vision.

In Chapter 6, entitled "Crime Before the Flood," Mrs. White in
describing the deplorable conditions which led to the catastrophic
destruction of the world, speaks of the amalgamation of man and beast.
In the next chapter there is another similar reference. Occasionally
inquiry is made as to just what Mrs. White did write in this connection
and what her statements meant, and why they are not found in her later
works, now current. Some have linked the amalgamation statements with
the memory of ancient myths regarding strange creatures produced by
unholy alliance between human beings and beasts, and have asked if the
E. G. White statements do not give support to these fables. It is also
intimated that they tend toward evolution.

The only passages in Mrs. White's writings that are of interest in this
connection are found in Spiritual Gifts, volume 3, already mentioned and
republished in Spirit of Prophecy, volume 1, in 1870. The first, in
chapter 6, "Crime Before the Flood," is this:

But if there was one sin above another which called for the
destruction of the race by the flood, it was the base crime of
amalgamation of man and beast which defaced the image of God, and caused
confusion everywhere. God purposed to destroy by a flood that powerful,
long-lived race that had corrupted their ways before him.--Spiritual
Gifts, vol. 3, p. 64.

Chapter 7 is entitled "The Flood," and contains this statement:

Every species of animal which God had created were preserved in the
ark. The confused species which God did not create, which were the
result of amalgamation, were destroyed by the Flood. Since the Flood
there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the
almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of
men.--Page 75.

These are Mrs. White's only statements on the subject of the
amalgamation of man and beast.

Just what Mrs. White meant by these passages has been the occasion of
some speculation through the years, and two explanations have been set
forth. Some have held that she taught not only that men and beasts have
cohabited but also that progeny resulted. However, those who hold this
view have contended that this does not support the doctrine of
evolution. The evolution theory depends for its life on the idea that
small, simple living structures can gradually evolve into ever higher
forms of life, finally bringing forth man.

That more or less closely related forms of life may cross and produce
hybrids is not questioned by creationists today. That, in the long ago,
when virility was greater, and conditions possibly in some respects
different, more diverse forms of life might have crossed--such as man
and some higher forms of animals--can be set forth only as an
assumption. But this assumption has marshaled against it the whole
weight of scientific belief today. Of course, scientists have been
wrong, at times, in reasoning that all the past must be understood in
terms of the processes we now see going on.

We might leave the matter as being beyond the range of investigation or
proof. The Bible itself contains some such statements, as all students
of the Scriptures well know.

But there is another explanation of these amalgamation passages which is
well supported and we believe more satisfying and which avoids any
conflict with the observable data of science.
What Does the Word "Amalgamation" Mean?

First, what is the general meaning of the word "amalgamation"? Is it
ever used to describe the depraved act of cohabitation of man with
beast? No dictionaries we have had access to, not even the exhaustive
Oxford English Dictionary, indicate that the term has ever been used to
describe this act. There is another standard English word that may
properly be used to describe such cohabitation. The primary usage of the
word "amalgamation" through long years has been to describe the fusion
of certain metals, and by extension, to denote the fusing of races of
men. In the mid-nineteenth century the word was commonly employed in the
United States to describe the intermarriage of the white and the Negro
race.[1]

The long-established meaning of the key word "amalgamation" as the
blending of races should weigh heavily in determining the interpretation
of the questioned passages.

Second, the whole tenor of Mrs. White's writings provides strong
testimony against the claim that she is here seeking solemnly to present
as fact some ancient stories about abnormal man-beast progeny. Her
writings are not tainted with fanciful fables of the long ago. Rather,
they have a strongly matter-of-fact quality to them. If she had been a
dreamer and visionary, how frequently might she have regaled her readers
with myths and weird stories of antiquity.
What Does the Key Phrase Mean?

The crux of the "amalgamation" passages is this: "amalgamation of man
and beast." That statement could be construed to mean amalgamation of
man with beast, or amalgamation of man and of beast. In a construction
like this the preposition "of" is not necessarily repeated, though it
may be clearly implied. We might speak of the scattering of man and
beast over the earth, but we do not therefore mean that previously man
and beast were fused in one mass at one geographical spot. We simply
mean the scattering of man over the earth and the scattering of beasts
over the earth, though the original location of the two groups might
have been on opposite sides of the earth. In other words, the scattering
of man and of beast.

Then why may we not rightly understand this particular grammatical
construction in the same way when speaking of amalgamation? If we may
speak of a scattering of man and beast without at all implying that
scattering started from a single spot, why may we not speak of the
amalgamation of man and beast without at all implying that man and beast
came together in one place in fusion?

We believe that the meaning of the key phrase in question is found by
understanding it to read: "amalgamation of man and [of] beast." Thus the
passage would be speaking of the amalgamation of different races of
mankind and the amalgamation of different races of animals. The
grammatical construction and common usage permit us to understand "of"
as being implied.
The Results of Amalgamation

But does simply the amalgamation of different races of men and the
amalgamation of different species of animals suffice to measure up to
the description of the evil character of amalgamation and the results
that followed from it; namely, destruction by a flood? Let us look first
at the amalgamation of races of men. Note again the text of the first
quotation cited (Spiritual Gifts, vol. 3, p. 64), and observe these
characteristics of amalgamation:

1. It was the "one sin above another which called for the
destruction of the race by the Flood."
2. It "defaced the image of God, and caused confusion everywhere."
3. "That powerful, long-lived race . . . had corrupted their ways
before him."

Two distinct groups of human beings are presented at the opening of the
chapter in Spiritual Gifts, volume 3, entitled "Crime Before the Flood":

(1) "The descendants of Seth," and (2) "The descendants of Cain." The
two groups were distinct in two marked ways: (1) The first group "felt
the curse but lightly." (2) The second group, "who turned from God and
trampled upon his authority, felt the effects of the curse more heavily,
especially in stature and nobleness of form." "The descendants of Seth
were called the sons of God--the descendants of Cain, the sons of men."
Here two races are presented which differ both in moral and physical
characteristics.

Then follow immediately these words: "As the sons of God mingled with
the sons of men, they became corrupt, and by intermarriage with them,
lost, through the influence of their wives, their peculiar, holy
character, and united with the sons of Cain in their idolatry."--Pages
60, 61. Next comes a description of their evil course of idolatry,
particularly their prostituting to sinful ends the gold and silver and
other material possessions that were theirs. Mrs. White then observes:
"They corrupted themselves with those things which God had placed upon
the earth for man's benefit."--Page 63. From a discussion of idolatry
she turns to polygamy and makes this statement: "The more men multiplied
wives to themselves, the more they increased in wickedness and
unhappiness."--Page 63.

Even in this brief chapter we find sufficient to support the position
that the judgment of a flood upon men was because of the amalgamation of
races of men. Two races are presented. The amalgamation of the two
results in corruption and idolatry, and polygamy only increases the
corruption and wickedness. The disputed passage says that God brought
the Flood because men "had corrupted their ways before him."
The Divine Image Defaced

Let us now note parallel passages in Mrs. White's writings. In
Patriarchs and Prophets, where she writes much more at length on the
subject, she speaks thus of the descendants of Seth and Cain:

For some time the two classes remained separate. The race of Cain,
spreading from the place of their first settlement, dispersed over the
plains and valleys where the children of Seth had dwelt; and the latter,
in order to escape from their contaminating influence, withdrew to the
mountains, and there made their home. So long as this separation
continued, they maintained the worship of God in its purity. But in the
lapse of time they ventured, little by little, to mingle with the
inhabitants of the valleys. This association was productive of the worst
results. "The sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair."
The children of Seth, attracted by the beauty of the daughters of Cain's
descendants, displeased the Lord by intermarrying with them. Many of the
worshipers of God were beguiled into sin by the allurements that were
now constantly before them, and they lost their peculiar, holy
character. Mingling with the depraved, they became like them in spirit
and in deeds; the restrictions of the seventh commandment were
disregarded, "and they took them wives of all which they chose." The
children of Seth went "in the way of Cain;" they fixed their minds upon
worldly prosperity and enjoyment, and neglected the commandments of the
Lord."--Pages 81, 82.

Here Mrs. White paints a picture of cumulative wickedness, climaxing in
the Flood, and stemming largely from the amalgamation of the "race of
Cain" and the "children of Seth." We are using the word "amalgamation"
in its proper dictionary meaning, and according to the common usage of
the time in which Mrs. White wrote--the intermarriage of different races.

Further on in Patriarchs and Prophets Mrs. White declares:

Polygamy was practiced at an early date. It was one of the sins
that brought the wrath of God upon the antediluvian world. Yet after the
flood it again became wide-spread. It was Satan's studied effort to
pervert the marriage institution, to weaken its obligations, and lessen
its sacredness; for in no surer way could he deface the image of God in
man, and open the door to misery and vice.--Page 338.

In a comment on the history of Israel, she observes:

It came to be a common practice to intermarry with the heathen. . .
. The enemy rejoiced in his success in effacing the divine image from
the minds of the people that God had chosen as His
representatives.--Fundamentals of Christian Education, p. 499.

Then take this passage from another of Mrs. White's writings:

Unhallowed marriages of the sons of God with the daughters of men,
resulted in apostasy which ended in the destruction of the world by a
flood.--Testimonies for the Church, vol. 5, p. 93.

Parallel Passages Summarized

Let us summarize: The result of the breaking down of the marriage
institution, and particularly the intermarriage between the children of
God and the heathen, was to "deface the image of God in man." Further,
"Unhallowed marriages of the sons of God with the daughters of men"
carried mankind irresistibly forward in increasing iniquity "which ended
in the destruction of the world by a flood." Substituting the word
"amalgamation" for "marriage" in the above quotations, note the striking
parallel to the following statements in the disputed passage: "The base
crime of amalgamation . . . defaced the image of God"; and, "God
purposed to destroy by a flood that powerful, long-lived race that had
corrupted their ways before Him."

In none of the parallel passages we have quoted, or in any others that
might be cited, does Mrs. White speak of the cohabitation of man with
beast as being a feature of the gross and dismal picture of antediluvian
wickedness that precipitated the Flood. On the contrary, it would appear
that she speaks of intermarriage of the race of Cain and the race of
Seth, with its inevitable train of idolatry, polygamy, and kindred
evils, as the cause of the Flood. And all this harmonizes with the
earlier quoted statement in the opening paragraph of the chapter that
contains the passage in question.

As the sons of God mingled with the sons of men, they became
corrupt, and by intermarriage with them, lost, through the influence of
their wives, their peculiar, holy character, and united with the sons of
Cain in their idolatry.--Spiritual Gifts, vol. 3, pp. 60, 61.

As already stated, this introduction to the chapter "Crime Before the
Flood" is followed by a recital of the idolatry that grew rampant, the
denial of God, the theft, the polygamy, the murder of men, and the
destruction of animal life. Then comes immediately the disputed passage,
as though summarizing; "But if there was one sin above another which
called for the destruction of the race by the Flood, it was the base
crime of amalgamation of man and beast which defaced the image of God,
and caused confusion everywhere."[2]

One apparent stumbling block in the way of accepting this interpretation
of the passage as an intermarriage of races of men and a crossing of
different species of animals is the construction of the statement:
"amalgamation of man and beast which defaced the image of God." How
could the crossing of species of animals do this?

But let us look more closely at what she says. Two results follow from
the "amalgamation of [1] man and [2] beast": It (1) "defaced the image
of God," and (2) "caused confusion everywhere." We have seen how the
marriage, the amalgamation, of the races of men produced the first of
the results. Why could we not properly consider that the amalgamation of
the races, or species, of animals produced the second, that is, "caused
confusion everywhere"? When two related things are described in one
sentence, it does not follow that we must understand that all the
results listed flow from each of the two.
Second Passage Examined

This brings us to a consideration of the second of the two passages
relating to amalgamation:

Every species of animal which God had created were preserved in the
ark. The confused species which God did not create, which were the
result of amalgamation, were destroyed by the flood. Since the flood
there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the
almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of
men.--Spiritual Gifts, vol. 3, p. 75.

This passage is separated from the first by only a few pages. The
intervening pages give the account of the Flood.

Here she speaks of "every species of animal which God had created," in
contrast with "the confused species which God did not create." "Confused
species" of what? The construction permits only one answer: Species of
animal. But an amalgamation of man with beast would produce, not a
species of animal, but a hybrid man-beast species, whatever that might
be. Mrs. White is here most certainly speaking of "confused species" of
animals. And she says simply that such "confused species" "were the
result of amalgamation."

Let us summarize, now, by placing in parallel columns the substance of
two statements by Mrs. White:

Amalgamation of Man Amalgamation of Beast

The intermarriage, the amalgamation, The amalgamation of "species of
of races of men defaced the image of animals" resulted in "confused
God. species."

We believe these parallel passages fully warrant the conclusion, already
reached, that when Mrs. White said, "amalgamation of man and beast," she
meant (1) the amalgamation of races of men, and (2) the amalgamation of
species of animals. The first "defaced the image of God," the second
"caused confusion everywhere."
Three Important Conclusions

Mrs. White says that "since the flood" there "has been amalgamation of
man and beast," and adds that the results may be seen in (1) "almost
endless varieties of species of animals," and in (2) "certain races of
men." There are several important conclusions that follow from this passage:

1. Mrs. White speaks of two clearly distinguished groups that testify to
this amalgamation. There are (1) "species of animals" and (2) "races of
men." There is no suggestion that there were species part man and part
animal. But how could there be amalgamation of man with animal and the
result be anything else than hybrid man-animal species? She does not
even hint of subhuman monsters or caricatures of man. On the contrary,
as just noted, she speaks unequivocally of "species of animals" and
"races of men." She does not single out or name any particular race as
bearing the evidence of this amalgamation.

2. Mrs. White speaks of the "almost endless varieties of species of
animals" that have resulted from amalgamation. Now it has been suggested
that Mrs. White in the matter of amalgamation reflected the thinking of
those who believed the fiction of man-animal crosses. If we rightly
understand that fiction, as it has been wafted through the centuries by
the winds of credulity, a few large, mythical creatures of antiquity
were supposed to have resulted from a union of man with animals. And
these creatures were always supposed to reveal both human and animal
features. But there is nothing in the ancient fiction that supported the
idea that "almost endless varieties of species of animals" were the
result of an unnatural cross of man with animals. Mrs. White is here
certainly not expressing an ancient, mythical view. Not even the
credulous pagans, wholly devoid of biological knowledge, would have
thought of entertaining such an idea. How much more reasonable to
interpret the passage to mean that these "almost endless varieties of
species of animals" resulted from an amalgamation of previously existing
forms of animal life!

3. Mrs. White calls upon the reader to look about him for proof of what
she is saying. In other words, whatever this amalgamation has been, its
fruitage is evident today. "As may be seen," she says, "in the almost
endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men."
But can anything be "seen" in our day that would provide support for the
ancient myth of beast-men? Certainly there is nothing in the savage
races of some remote heathen lands that even suggests a cross between
man and animals.[3] And if the most degraded race of men does not
suggest such a cross, much less do any species of animals suggest it.
But the results of the amalgamation of which Mrs. White speaks "may be
seen" by the reader.
Darwinism and Creationism

At the time she wrote her amalgamation statement in 1864, Darwin's
influence was only beginning to be felt in the world. Until he published
his Origin of Species (Nov. 24, 1859), most scientists, and religionists
generally, had held firmly to the view that the species are "fixed,"
that is, they cannot be crossed. Darwin theorized that all creation is
in flux, with no ultimate bounds on any form of life. He reasoned that
natural law, expressing itself through natural selection and survival of
the fittest, causes simple forms to become increasingly complex and to
rise constantly in the scale of life, until man finally appears. His
theory and the doctrine of the fixity of species could not live
together. One devoured the other. To Darwin and those who agreed with
him, it seemed that the chief obstacle to acceptance of his theory was
the doctrine of species fixity. And to orthodox Christians belief in
species fixity seemed absolutely essential to belief in Genesis.

Thus when the battle began between the Darwinites and the believers in
Genesis the fighting was chiefly over this question of the fixity of
species. Creationists generally considered the term "species" as
equivalent to the "kinds," in Genesis, to each of which was given the
divine order to "bring forth . . . after his kind." Gen.1:24. Such an
equating of "species" and "kind" we now know to be unwarranted.

The outcome of such an uneven fight is known to all. Evolutionists had
little trouble in proving that there are "endless varieties of species
of animals," if we might borrow Mrs. White's words in her amalgamation
statement. And whenever creationists have sought to make their stand on
the point of fixity of species, as that term is generally understood,
they have been put to rout.

Present-day creationists who have any knowledge of genetics, which
treats of the laws governing "heredity and variations among related
organisms," fare much better than did their fighting fathers. Genetics
shows how endless varieties may develop within certain limits--the
limits of the potential variations within the original strain--but no
farther. In other words, the simple fact of variations in species does
not, in itself, provide any proof for evolution. That much is certain.
Thus we may believe in "endless varieties of species" after Ararat
without believing in evolution. Mrs. White wrote in 1864 that these
"almost endless varieties" "may be seen," though creationists at that
time, and for about a half century more, saw no such thing; they saw
only fixity of species. Yet Mrs. White had no leanings toward Darwin's
theory. From the outset she spoke vigorously against evolution!
Was It Sin?

Mrs. White describes the "amalgamation of man and beast" as a "sin" and
a "base crime," but why should the amalgamation of various species of
animals be thus described?

Note first that Mrs. White, in the chapter "Crime Before the Flood," is
using the word "crime" as loosely synonymous with "sin." The key word
before us, therefore, is "sin." And what is sin? It is transgression of
the law of God. This is often restricted in theological thinking to
violations of the Ten Commandments, the moral law. That Mrs. White
frequently uses the word "sin" in a much larger sense, as including any
violation of so-called natural laws, is evident from an examination of
her writings. The reason she does this is that she declares that these
so-called laws of nature are as truly an expression of the mind and will
of God as are the Ten Commandments. For example: "It is just as much sin
to violate the laws of our being as to break one of the ten
commandments, for we cannot do either without breaking God's
law."--Testimonies for the Church,vol. 2, p. 70.

Now let us turn to the Bible record of the condition of the whole
created world, man and beast, before the Flood:

"And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face
of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls
of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them." Gen. 6:7.

Why should the Lord repent that He had "made them," the beasts and birds
and creeping things, as well as man? In a few verses farther on is found
the answer:

"And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all
flesh had corrupted his [A.R.V. their] way upon the earth." Gen. 6:12.

"And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of
cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the
earth, and every man." Gen. 7:21.
The Plan of God for Eden

When God first made the world He placed upon it a wide variety of
animals and plants, distributed over hills and valleys, on sunny plain
and in shady dell. The picture was one of beauty and harmony in
diversity. We can, of course, only conjecture as to details of the
Edenic world. The record declares that God commanded that each form of
life should bring forth "after his kind." Gen. 1:24.

And the fossil records bear silent testimony that between the major
forms of life there appear to be no intermediary forms. There are sharp
gaps instead. Whether the Lord designed that His perfect earth should
also preserve distinctions between the more closely related forms of
life, we can only venture a guess. But if He placed all these more or
less closely related forms upon the earth, it would seem a reasonable
assumption that He did so as an expression of His divine conception of
what a perfect world should be like.

We think this is even more than a reasonable assumption in the light of
specific counsel later given to Israel, as God sought to set up in this
sinful world a government according to the plans of heaven. Through
Moses God said to Israel:

"Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a
diverse kind; thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither
shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee." Lev.
19:19. (See also Deut. 22:9-11.)
Satan and the Animal Kingdom

The Bible presents a picture of a controversy between God and the devil
that starts with the beginnings of our world and covers everything that
has to do with our world. That Satan, as a free moral agent, has been
allowed of God to roam the earth and use his diabolical skill in
creating disorder and destruction, the Bible amply testifies.

The first instance of Satan's attempt to bring disorder in our world was
his speaking through an animal, a serpent. And though Satan was the
instigator of the serpent's wily words, the Lord included the serpent in
the judgments meted out at the fall.

Where the Scripture record is so brief we must be slow to dogmatize. But
we may find in the fact of Satan, his evil purposes, and this
specifically mentioned instance of his control of a member of the animal
kingdom, a strong suggestion that the animal kingdom has suffered from
his diabolical cunning. We cannot believe that in Eden there were
blood-thirsty beasts, ill-tempered, snarling, and vicious. All believers
in the Bible grant that these evil changes in the beasts were the result
of sin. But how could a beast, which does not have a moral nature, and
therefore has no knowledge of sin, be changed in nature by the entrance
of sin into the life of Adam and Eve? The Christian mind will not permit
the idea that God so changed the animals. In the fact of Satan, whose
domination of the serpent is recorded for our learning, is surely found
the only real explanation of the sorry change that came over the animal
kingdom. Part of that change, we believe, was the confusing of the
species, the blurring of a wondrous picture of divine harmony in diversity.
A Belief Consistent With Scripture

We grant that this belief as to the cause of the confusing of species
cannot be supported by a clear text of Scripture. We affirm only that
this belief is consistent with such scriptures as discuss those earliest
days. And nothing more than this need be affirmed in order to protect
the belief from being lightly dismissed by any Bible believer, as an
unreasonable explanation.

It is evident that on this view of the confusion of species in the
animal kingdom we find a satisfying answer to the question: How could
the crossing of different forms of animal life be described as sin? Was
sin involved in the activity of the serpent? We all answer Yes. But we
immediately think of Satan. Even so with the crossing of animals. Any
and every move to mar God's original, orderly plan can be described only
as sin.
Mrs. White Focuses on Satan as Evil Power

One cannot read far in Mrs. White's writings before becoming aware that
she views the whole drama of our world from its earliest days onward as
a great struggle between God and the devil.[4] Mrs. White pictures Satan
as stalking over the earth, bent on disorder and devastation, even as
the Bible pictures him. It is true that she did not specifically refer
to Satan in the amalgamation statements in Spiritual Gifts. However,
another reference to amalgamation discloses her views as to the cause of
certain of the changes that took place in our world after Adam and Eve
fell. The statement reads:

Not one noxious plant was placed in the Lord's great garden, but
after Adam and Eve sinned, poisonous herbs sprang up. In the parable of
the sower the question was asked the Master, "Didst not thou sow good
seed in thy field? how then hath it tares?" The Master answered, "An
enemy hath done this." All tares are sown by the evil one. Every noxious
herb is of his sowing, and by his ingenious methods of amalgamation he
has corrupted the earth with tares.--Selected Messages, book 2, p. 288.

This statement, viewed in the setting of the whole tenor of Mrs. White's
writings which attribute to Satan the active responsibility for all evil
in our world, fully warrants us in concluding that she attributed to
Satan the "confused species" of animals. Hence she would most certainly
describe these "species" as a manifestation of sin, even as she could
properly speak of the appearance of insensate but "noxious, poisonous
herbs" as an exhibit of the activity of the "evil one." Thus her
amalgamation statement regarding "sin" is consistent with all that
Scripture has revealed of earth's early days, in terms of the
interpretation we have given to the key phrase, "amalgamation of man and
beast."
Statement Not Found in "Patriarchs and Prophets"

We come now to the consideration of the fact that the amalgamation
statements were not incorporated by Mrs. White in Patriarchs and
Prophets, now current, and the natural inquiry as to why these
statements do not there appear. Some have conjectured that these two
statements have been purposely suppressed.

The fact that a passage is not retained in later publications, or that a
particular book is not republished, is not in itself valid ground for
assuming that suppression has occurred. The groundlessness of such a
suggestion is made transparently clear when we give these pertinent
facts in the case:

From 1858 to 1864 there appeared from Mrs. White's pen four small
volumes carrying the general title Spiritual Gifts. With the exception
of volume 2, which is largely autobiographical, and the latter half of
volume 4, the volumes present a portrayal of sacred history from the
creation to Eden restored.

From 1870 to 1884 she brought forth four larger volumes, under the
title The Spirit of Prophecy. These volumes cover more fully the subject
of man's religious history from Eden to Eden. In large part the material
in Spiritual Gifts, except the autobiographical volume, is reproduced in
The Spirit of Prophecy. Often the text of the former is exactly
reproduced, chapter after chapter, in the latter. In some instances
there are deletions, and often there are additions. A detailed study of
the matter reveals that here apply the principles by which an author, in
bringing out a new and more complete treatment of a theme, may properly
add or subtract or revise. The two amalgamation passages appear verbatim
in The Spirit of Prophecy, in volume 1, published in 1870.

How easy it would have been for Mrs. White to drop out the amalgamation
passages in the 1870 edition. The passages had already raised questions,
as is evidenced by the reference to them in Uriah Smith's work,
Objections to the Visions Answered, published in 1868. That was the time
to "suppress" them if she cared to do so. But two years later she
reproduced the chapters containing the passages, so that both the
passages and the context remain the same.

Up to this time Mrs. White had been writing quite exclusively for the
church. The next step was the planning of books that might be sold to
those outside the Seventh-day Adventist church, even to those who might
not have any religious background or connection. Naturally, included in
such a plan would be the desire to give an appropriate emphasis to
certain truths that distinguish the preaching of the Advent movement.
Now, even as a minister, turning from his congregation to address a
mixed multitude, would quite change his treatment of a subject, by
addition, subtraction, or revision, even so would a writer. In 1890 the
great subject of man's early history, which is the theme of Spiritual
Gifts, volume 3, and Spirit of Prophecy, volume 1, was covered in a new
way in the book Patriarchs and Prophets, prepared for sale to the
general public. This is one of a set of current works which cover the
religious history of man from Eden to Eden, and known generally as the
'Conflict of the Ages' Series. In each volume of the series the field is
covered in an amplified and sometimes new way, and no pretense is made
of reprinting an earlier work. It would be just as consistent to contend
that the whole four volumes of The Spirit of Prophecy have been
suppressed as to contend that a certain five sentences--the total
involved in the amalgamation passages--have been suppressed.

In this connection we remind the reader that the four volumes of
Spiritual Gifts, which are the original source of the amalgamation
passages, are currently available in a facsimile edition.

_______________________________

[1] The Century Dictionary, edition of 1889, says, under "Amalgamation":
"2. The mixing or blending of different things, especially of races."
The idea of the blending of races, as one meaning of the word, seems to
have faded out of some dictionaries, probably in view of the fact that
the term "hybridization" is now generally used to denote fusion, or
crossing, of living things. However, the 1949 printing of Funk and
Wagnalls New Standard Dictionary says, under "Amalgamate": "3. To form
into a compound by mixing or blending; unite; combine; as to amalgamate
diverse races. Used specifically, in the southern United States, of
marriage between white and black persons."
A Dictionary of American English (Oxford University Press, 1938-1944, 4
vols.) says:
"Amalgamate, v. (1797-, in general sense.) Of persons: a. To combine or
coalesce, esp. by intermarriage. /b. (See quot. 1859) ... 1859 BARTLETT
8 Amalgamate ... is universally applied, in the United States, to the
mixing of the black and white races.
"Amalgamation. (1775- in general sense.) /The fusion of the white and
black races by intermarriage."

[2] Some might contend that the construction of this sentence indicates
that the writer is listing a new crime to the series, something in
addition to the unholy marriages, idolatry, murder, etc. We do not
believe that such a conclusion is required. It is no unusual thing for a
writer to list a series of items, and then, in conclusion, focus upon
one of them, with some such introductory phrase as, "If there is one
item above another . . ." Nor do we believe that any special weight
should be placed on the fact that in thus recapitulating, the writer
amplifies on the particular point under discussion, as though the very
focusing on it seems to draw the writer's mind to a related thought.
This, we believe, is a wholly reasonable way to view the construction
before us. Mrs. White returns, in the last paragraph of the chapter, to
focus on the main cause of the Flood, as earlier set forth in the
chapter. In so doing she expands a little to include the related
"confusion" in the animal kingdom that had resulted from the entrance of
sin into the world.

[3] In the middle of the nineteenth century, when some dark recesses of
the earth had scarcely been touched by explorers, strange stories were
often told as to the kind of savages who dwelt there. Probably some who
first read Mrs. White's amalgamation statements unconsciously allowed
these strange stories to determine their interpretation of the passages.
Needless to say, now that all the savage races are fairly well known,
the testimony of those who have come in contact with them is that though
they may be depraved, they are exceedingly human in every respect, and
need only the opportunity to acquire the white man's habits and vices!
Mrs. White does not comment on the phrase, "certain races of men." She
gives no details as to how the races intermingled after the Flood, nor
does she say that such postdiluvian intermingling was a "base crime." We
need only to note that she makes the simple statement that
"amalgamation" produced "races of men," not races part man and part animal.

[4] A four-volume work by Mrs. White, published between 1870 and 1884,
entitled Spirit of Prophecy, carries the secondary title: The Great
Controversy between Christ and Satan, not to be confused with the later
work Great Controversy, which is an expansion of the fourth volume. In
the first volume the two amalgamation passages are reprinted in their
original context.
Ellen G. White Estate Homepage
Selected Issues Regarding Inspiration and the Life and Work of Ellen G.
White
Post by Whazit Tooyah
" But if there was one sin above another which called for the destruction
of
the race by the flood, it was the base crime of amalgamation of man and
beast which defaced the image of God, and caused confusion everywhere."
"Every species of animal which God had created were preserved in the ark.
The confused species which God did not create, which were the result of
amalgamation, were destroyed by the flood. Since the flood there has been
amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless
varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men."
Both quotes are cut and pasted from Spiritual Gifts pgs 64 & 75.
1. Just to clarify, Mrs. White used the term "base crime" only one other
time, to describe the act Potiphar's wife wanted to commit with Joseph.
2. Sex between humans cannot "deface the image of God," since the product of
that sex would be human "made in the image of God."
3. Confused species can only mean hybrids
4. Nowhere in scripture is can one find marriage between races called
sinful with the exception of the Israelites marrying people outside of the
covenant. There were no racial boundaries for those who wished to be under
the covenant with Israel. Once under the covenant they were free to marry.
Conclusion: If you don't believe that Mrs. White taught that sex with
another species produced animals "which defaced the image of God," then you
have been lied to and/or you are lying to yourself.
Sorry, this is one embarrassment that can't be explained away, at least with
any credibility.
http://www.whiteestate.org/search/search.asp
This is the White Estate's web site so there is no bias against Mrs. White
here. It's quite revealing, just about everything that people claim about
her weird ideas can be verified or proved wrong. I usually read a paragraph
or two before and after a quote to be sure that she is not being taken out
of context. Usually her critics are proven to be right by her own words.
WT
WT
Stephen Korsman
2006-07-02 11:39:42 UTC
Permalink
Hi

This assessment is faulty on the following points:

Amalgamation of animal species doesn't produce fertile hybrids. Even in the
plant world, that is extremely rare. (Orchids are an example.)

Marriage between races was not forbidden, and happened without reprimand.
Moses' wife.

Marriage between religions was not forbidden, and happened without
reprimand. Samson's wife. "But his father and his mother knew not that it
was of the Lord..." Judges 14:4

Neither of these defaces the image of God. Nor does sex. The only
explanation would be animal-human hybrids.

The word amalgamation can validly be used to describe the breeding of
animals with humans. No dictionary lists every possible use of a word,
including those used by Ellen White. No dictionary includes the concept of
Satan mixing evil properties with herbs to produce tares (Ellen White,
Selected Messages, Vol. 2, p. 288) or the union between Christians and the
world (Ellen White, Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, August 23, 1892). And
science fiction authors have used the term amalgamation to describe breeding
between humans and aliens. Clearly, Ellen White's use of the term fits the
dictionary's definition -
http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?WORD=amalgamation - "2. The
mixing or blending of different elements, races, societies, etc.; also, the
result of such combination or blending; a homogeneous union."

Also, it should be noted that early Adventists defended the position that
she meant breeding between animals and humans. Uriah Smith did this, then
James White examined the book in detail, after which he and Ellen promoted
it. It's very hard to believe they would have done so had James and Ellen
not agreed with his interpretation.

"Moreover, naturalists affirm that the line of demarkation between the human
and animal races is lost in confusion. It is impossible, as they affirm, to
tell just where the human ends and the animal begins. Can we suppose that
this was so ordained of God in the beginning? Rather has not sin marred the
boundaries of these two kingdoms?" Uriah Smith, The Visions of Mrs. E. G.
White, A Manifestation of Spiritual gifts According to the Scripture, p. 103

It was also taught by her contemporaries, including one of her sources, the
book of Jasher.

This is just a desperate attempt to explain away a very embarrassing
statement she made.

If you consider the theory that animals and plants were not created as they
are today, i.e. snarling etc. That their change is due to Satan is absurd.
It implies the same change in humans, also due to Satan.

Take the lion, for example.

It has claws, teeth for a carnivorous lifestyle, and for snarling, a
digestive tract designed for meat, muscles designed for running and tackling
prey.

Are these all additions from Satan? What did God create the lion to look
like? If we remove all these features, he must have made it a sheep-like
creature. So God didn't create lions - Satan turned sheep-like creatures
into lions?? Absurd.

Look at man - we have the typical anatomy and physiology of an omnivore.
Did we have different teeth, a different digestive tract, different enzymes
prior to the fall?

Are we to look at nature and see every carnivore as made by Satan?

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

IC | XC
---------
NI | KA

add an s before .co.za
Post by KA6UUP
Amalgamation: Ellen G. White Statements
Regarding Conditions at the Time of the Flood
By Francis D. Nichol
(Adapted from his book Ellen G. White and Her Critics, pp. 306-322)
In the summer of 1864 the "Steam Press of the Seventh-day Adventist
Publishing Association" at Battle Creek, Michigan, published a
three-hundred-page Ellen G. White volume entitled "Important Facts of
Faith in Connection With the History of Holy Men of Old." This was the
third of a four-volume series carrying the general title of Spiritual Gifts.
In this work the narrative of the early history of the world is
presented, commencing with "The Creation" and carrying down to the
giving of the law to Israel, these matters, as the author states in her
Preface, having been opened to her in vision.
In Chapter 6, entitled "Crime Before the Flood," Mrs. White in
describing the deplorable conditions which led to the catastrophic
destruction of the world, speaks of the amalgamation of man and beast.
In the next chapter there is another similar reference. Occasionally
inquiry is made as to just what Mrs. White did write in this connection
and what her statements meant, and why they are not found in her later
works, now current. Some have linked the amalgamation statements with
the memory of ancient myths regarding strange creatures produced by
unholy alliance between human beings and beasts, and have asked if the
E. G. White statements do not give support to these fables. It is also
intimated that they tend toward evolution.
The only passages in Mrs. White's writings that are of interest in this
connection are found in Spiritual Gifts, volume 3, already mentioned and
republished in Spirit of Prophecy, volume 1, in 1870. The first, in
But if there was one sin above another which called for the
destruction of the race by the flood, it was the base crime of
amalgamation of man and beast which defaced the image of God, and caused
confusion everywhere. God purposed to destroy by a flood that powerful,
long-lived race that had corrupted their ways before him.--Spiritual
Gifts, vol. 3, p. 64.
Every species of animal which God had created were preserved in the
ark. The confused species which God did not create, which were the
result of amalgamation, were destroyed by the Flood. Since the Flood
there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the
almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of
men.--Page 75.
These are Mrs. White's only statements on the subject of the
amalgamation of man and beast.
Just what Mrs. White meant by these passages has been the occasion of
some speculation through the years, and two explanations have been set
forth. Some have held that she taught not only that men and beasts have
cohabited but also that progeny resulted. However, those who hold this
view have contended that this does not support the doctrine of
evolution. The evolution theory depends for its life on the idea that
small, simple living structures can gradually evolve into ever higher
forms of life, finally bringing forth man.
That more or less closely related forms of life may cross and produce
hybrids is not questioned by creationists today. That, in the long ago,
when virility was greater, and conditions possibly in some respects
different, more diverse forms of life might have crossed--such as man
and some higher forms of animals--can be set forth only as an
assumption. But this assumption has marshaled against it the whole
weight of scientific belief today. Of course, scientists have been
wrong, at times, in reasoning that all the past must be understood in
terms of the processes we now see going on.
We might leave the matter as being beyond the range of investigation or
proof. The Bible itself contains some such statements, as all students
of the Scriptures well know.
But there is another explanation of these amalgamation passages which is
well supported and we believe more satisfying and which avoids any
conflict with the observable data of science.
What Does the Word "Amalgamation" Mean?
First, what is the general meaning of the word "amalgamation"? Is it
ever used to describe the depraved act of cohabitation of man with
beast? No dictionaries we have had access to, not even the exhaustive
Oxford English Dictionary, indicate that the term has ever been used to
describe this act. There is another standard English word that may
properly be used to describe such cohabitation. The primary usage of the
word "amalgamation" through long years has been to describe the fusion
of certain metals, and by extension, to denote the fusing of races of
men. In the mid-nineteenth century the word was commonly employed in the
United States to describe the intermarriage of the white and the Negro
race.[1]
The long-established meaning of the key word "amalgamation" as the
blending of races should weigh heavily in determining the interpretation
of the questioned passages.
Second, the whole tenor of Mrs. White's writings provides strong
testimony against the claim that she is here seeking solemnly to present
as fact some ancient stories about abnormal man-beast progeny. Her
writings are not tainted with fanciful fables of the long ago. Rather,
they have a strongly matter-of-fact quality to them. If she had been a
dreamer and visionary, how frequently might she have regaled her readers
with myths and weird stories of antiquity.
What Does the Key Phrase Mean?
The crux of the "amalgamation" passages is this: "amalgamation of man
and beast." That statement could be construed to mean amalgamation of
man with beast, or amalgamation of man and of beast. In a construction
like this the preposition "of" is not necessarily repeated, though it
may be clearly implied. We might speak of the scattering of man and
beast over the earth, but we do not therefore mean that previously man
and beast were fused in one mass at one geographical spot. We simply
mean the scattering of man over the earth and the scattering of beasts
over the earth, though the original location of the two groups might
have been on opposite sides of the earth. In other words, the scattering
of man and of beast.
Then why may we not rightly understand this particular grammatical
construction in the same way when speaking of amalgamation? If we may
speak of a scattering of man and beast without at all implying that
scattering started from a single spot, why may we not speak of the
amalgamation of man and beast without at all implying that man and beast
came together in one place in fusion?
We believe that the meaning of the key phrase in question is found by
understanding it to read: "amalgamation of man and [of] beast." Thus the
passage would be speaking of the amalgamation of different races of
mankind and the amalgamation of different races of animals. The
grammatical construction and common usage permit us to understand "of"
as being implied.
The Results of Amalgamation
But does simply the amalgamation of different races of men and the
amalgamation of different species of animals suffice to measure up to
the description of the evil character of amalgamation and the results
that followed from it; namely, destruction by a flood? Let us look first
at the amalgamation of races of men. Note again the text of the first
quotation cited (Spiritual Gifts, vol. 3, p. 64), and observe these
1. It was the "one sin above another which called for the
destruction of the race by the Flood."
2. It "defaced the image of God, and caused confusion everywhere."
3. "That powerful, long-lived race . . . had corrupted their ways
before him."
Two distinct groups of human beings are presented at the opening of the
(1) "The descendants of Seth," and (2) "The descendants of Cain." The
two groups were distinct in two marked ways: (1) The first group "felt
the curse but lightly." (2) The second group, "who turned from God and
trampled upon his authority, felt the effects of the curse more heavily,
especially in stature and nobleness of form." "The descendants of Seth
were called the sons of God--the descendants of Cain, the sons of men."
Here two races are presented which differ both in moral and physical
characteristics.
Then follow immediately these words: "As the sons of God mingled with
the sons of men, they became corrupt, and by intermarriage with them,
lost, through the influence of their wives, their peculiar, holy
character, and united with the sons of Cain in their idolatry."--Pages
60, 61. Next comes a description of their evil course of idolatry,
particularly their prostituting to sinful ends the gold and silver and
"They corrupted themselves with those things which God had placed upon
the earth for man's benefit."--Page 63. From a discussion of idolatry
she turns to polygamy and makes this statement: "The more men multiplied
wives to themselves, the more they increased in wickedness and
unhappiness."--Page 63.
Even in this brief chapter we find sufficient to support the position
that the judgment of a flood upon men was because of the amalgamation of
races of men. Two races are presented. The amalgamation of the two
results in corruption and idolatry, and polygamy only increases the
corruption and wickedness. The disputed passage says that God brought
the Flood because men "had corrupted their ways before him."
The Divine Image Defaced
Let us now note parallel passages in Mrs. White's writings. In
Patriarchs and Prophets, where she writes much more at length on the
For some time the two classes remained separate. The race of Cain,
spreading from the place of their first settlement, dispersed over the
plains and valleys where the children of Seth had dwelt; and the latter,
in order to escape from their contaminating influence, withdrew to the
mountains, and there made their home. So long as this separation
continued, they maintained the worship of God in its purity. But in the
lapse of time they ventured, little by little, to mingle with the
inhabitants of the valleys. This association was productive of the worst
results. "The sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair."
The children of Seth, attracted by the beauty of the daughters of Cain's
descendants, displeased the Lord by intermarrying with them. Many of the
worshipers of God were beguiled into sin by the allurements that were
now constantly before them, and they lost their peculiar, holy
character. Mingling with the depraved, they became like them in spirit
and in deeds; the restrictions of the seventh commandment were
disregarded, "and they took them wives of all which they chose." The
children of Seth went "in the way of Cain;" they fixed their minds upon
worldly prosperity and enjoyment, and neglected the commandments of the
Lord."--Pages 81, 82.
Here Mrs. White paints a picture of cumulative wickedness, climaxing in
the Flood, and stemming largely from the amalgamation of the "race of
Cain" and the "children of Seth." We are using the word "amalgamation"
in its proper dictionary meaning, and according to the common usage of
the time in which Mrs. White wrote--the intermarriage of different races.
Polygamy was practiced at an early date. It was one of the sins
that brought the wrath of God upon the antediluvian world. Yet after the
flood it again became wide-spread. It was Satan's studied effort to
pervert the marriage institution, to weaken its obligations, and lessen
its sacredness; for in no surer way could he deface the image of God in
man, and open the door to misery and vice.--Page 338.
It came to be a common practice to intermarry with the heathen. . .
. The enemy rejoiced in his success in effacing the divine image from
the minds of the people that God had chosen as His
representatives.--Fundamentals of Christian Education, p. 499.
Unhallowed marriages of the sons of God with the daughters of men,
resulted in apostasy which ended in the destruction of the world by a
flood.--Testimonies for the Church, vol. 5, p. 93.
Parallel Passages Summarized
Let us summarize: The result of the breaking down of the marriage
institution, and particularly the intermarriage between the children of
God and the heathen, was to "deface the image of God in man." Further,
"Unhallowed marriages of the sons of God with the daughters of men"
carried mankind irresistibly forward in increasing iniquity "which ended
in the destruction of the world by a flood." Substituting the word
"amalgamation" for "marriage" in the above quotations, note the striking
parallel to the following statements in the disputed passage: "The base
crime of amalgamation . . . defaced the image of God"; and, "God
purposed to destroy by a flood that powerful, long-lived race that had
corrupted their ways before Him."
In none of the parallel passages we have quoted, or in any others that
might be cited, does Mrs. White speak of the cohabitation of man with
beast as being a feature of the gross and dismal picture of antediluvian
wickedness that precipitated the Flood. On the contrary, it would appear
that she speaks of intermarriage of the race of Cain and the race of
Seth, with its inevitable train of idolatry, polygamy, and kindred
evils, as the cause of the Flood. And all this harmonizes with the
earlier quoted statement in the opening paragraph of the chapter that
contains the passage in question.
As the sons of God mingled with the sons of men, they became
corrupt, and by intermarriage with them, lost, through the influence of
their wives, their peculiar, holy character, and united with the sons of
Cain in their idolatry.--Spiritual Gifts, vol. 3, pp. 60, 61.
As already stated, this introduction to the chapter "Crime Before the
Flood" is followed by a recital of the idolatry that grew rampant, the
denial of God, the theft, the polygamy, the murder of men, and the
destruction of animal life. Then comes immediately the disputed passage,
as though summarizing; "But if there was one sin above another which
called for the destruction of the race by the Flood, it was the base
crime of amalgamation of man and beast which defaced the image of God,
and caused confusion everywhere."[2]
One apparent stumbling block in the way of accepting this interpretation
of the passage as an intermarriage of races of men and a crossing of
"amalgamation of man and beast which defaced the image of God." How
could the crossing of species of animals do this?
But let us look more closely at what she says. Two results follow from
the "amalgamation of [1] man and [2] beast": It (1) "defaced the image
of God," and (2) "caused confusion everywhere." We have seen how the
marriage, the amalgamation, of the races of men produced the first of
the results. Why could we not properly consider that the amalgamation of
the races, or species, of animals produced the second, that is, "caused
confusion everywhere"? When two related things are described in one
sentence, it does not follow that we must understand that all the
results listed flow from each of the two.
Second Passage Examined
This brings us to a consideration of the second of the two passages
Every species of animal which God had created were preserved in the
ark. The confused species which God did not create, which were the
result of amalgamation, were destroyed by the flood. Since the flood
there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the
almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of
men.--Spiritual Gifts, vol. 3, p. 75.
This passage is separated from the first by only a few pages. The
intervening pages give the account of the Flood.
Here she speaks of "every species of animal which God had created," in
contrast with "the confused species which God did not create." "Confused
species" of what? The construction permits only one answer: Species of
animal. But an amalgamation of man with beast would produce, not a
species of animal, but a hybrid man-beast species, whatever that might
be. Mrs. White is here most certainly speaking of "confused species" of
animals. And she says simply that such "confused species" "were the
result of amalgamation."
Let us summarize, now, by placing in parallel columns the substance of
Amalgamation of Man Amalgamation of Beast
The intermarriage, the amalgamation, The amalgamation of "species of
of races of men defaced the image of animals" resulted in "confused
God. species."
We believe these parallel passages fully warrant the conclusion, already
reached, that when Mrs. White said, "amalgamation of man and beast," she
meant (1) the amalgamation of races of men, and (2) the amalgamation of
species of animals. The first "defaced the image of God," the second
"caused confusion everywhere."
Three Important Conclusions
Mrs. White says that "since the flood" there "has been amalgamation of
man and beast," and adds that the results may be seen in (1) "almost
endless varieties of species of animals," and in (2) "certain races of
1. Mrs. White speaks of two clearly distinguished groups that testify to
this amalgamation. There are (1) "species of animals" and (2) "races of
men." There is no suggestion that there were species part man and part
animal. But how could there be amalgamation of man with animal and the
result be anything else than hybrid man-animal species? She does not
even hint of subhuman monsters or caricatures of man. On the contrary,
as just noted, she speaks unequivocally of "species of animals" and
"races of men." She does not single out or name any particular race as
bearing the evidence of this amalgamation.
2. Mrs. White speaks of the "almost endless varieties of species of
animals" that have resulted from amalgamation. Now it has been suggested
that Mrs. White in the matter of amalgamation reflected the thinking of
those who believed the fiction of man-animal crosses. If we rightly
understand that fiction, as it has been wafted through the centuries by
the winds of credulity, a few large, mythical creatures of antiquity
were supposed to have resulted from a union of man with animals. And
these creatures were always supposed to reveal both human and animal
features. But there is nothing in the ancient fiction that supported the
idea that "almost endless varieties of species of animals" were the
result of an unnatural cross of man with animals. Mrs. White is here
certainly not expressing an ancient, mythical view. Not even the
credulous pagans, wholly devoid of biological knowledge, would have
thought of entertaining such an idea. How much more reasonable to
interpret the passage to mean that these "almost endless varieties of
species of animals" resulted from an amalgamation of previously existing
forms of animal life!
3. Mrs. White calls upon the reader to look about him for proof of what
she is saying. In other words, whatever this amalgamation has been, its
fruitage is evident today. "As may be seen," she says, "in the almost
endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men."
But can anything be "seen" in our day that would provide support for the
ancient myth of beast-men? Certainly there is nothing in the savage
races of some remote heathen lands that even suggests a cross between
man and animals.[3] And if the most degraded race of men does not
suggest such a cross, much less do any species of animals suggest it.
But the results of the amalgamation of which Mrs. White speaks "may be
seen" by the reader.
Darwinism and Creationism
At the time she wrote her amalgamation statement in 1864, Darwin's
influence was only beginning to be felt in the world. Until he published
his Origin of Species (Nov. 24, 1859), most scientists, and religionists
generally, had held firmly to the view that the species are "fixed,"
that is, they cannot be crossed. Darwin theorized that all creation is
in flux, with no ultimate bounds on any form of life. He reasoned that
natural law, expressing itself through natural selection and survival of
the fittest, causes simple forms to become increasingly complex and to
rise constantly in the scale of life, until man finally appears. His
theory and the doctrine of the fixity of species could not live
together. One devoured the other. To Darwin and those who agreed with
him, it seemed that the chief obstacle to acceptance of his theory was
the doctrine of species fixity. And to orthodox Christians belief in
species fixity seemed absolutely essential to belief in Genesis.
Thus when the battle began between the Darwinites and the believers in
Genesis the fighting was chiefly over this question of the fixity of
species. Creationists generally considered the term "species" as
equivalent to the "kinds," in Genesis, to each of which was given the
divine order to "bring forth . . . after his kind." Gen.1:24. Such an
equating of "species" and "kind" we now know to be unwarranted.
The outcome of such an uneven fight is known to all. Evolutionists had
little trouble in proving that there are "endless varieties of species
of animals," if we might borrow Mrs. White's words in her amalgamation
statement. And whenever creationists have sought to make their stand on
the point of fixity of species, as that term is generally understood,
they have been put to rout.
Present-day creationists who have any knowledge of genetics, which
treats of the laws governing "heredity and variations among related
organisms," fare much better than did their fighting fathers. Genetics
shows how endless varieties may develop within certain limits--the
limits of the potential variations within the original strain--but no
farther. In other words, the simple fact of variations in species does
not, in itself, provide any proof for evolution. That much is certain.
Thus we may believe in "endless varieties of species" after Ararat
without believing in evolution. Mrs. White wrote in 1864 that these
"almost endless varieties" "may be seen," though creationists at that
time, and for about a half century more, saw no such thing; they saw
only fixity of species. Yet Mrs. White had no leanings toward Darwin's
theory. From the outset she spoke vigorously against evolution!
Was It Sin?
Mrs. White describes the "amalgamation of man and beast" as a "sin" and
a "base crime," but why should the amalgamation of various species of
animals be thus described?
Note first that Mrs. White, in the chapter "Crime Before the Flood," is
using the word "crime" as loosely synonymous with "sin." The key word
before us, therefore, is "sin." And what is sin? It is transgression of
the law of God. This is often restricted in theological thinking to
violations of the Ten Commandments, the moral law. That Mrs. White
frequently uses the word "sin" in a much larger sense, as including any
violation of so-called natural laws, is evident from an examination of
her writings. The reason she does this is that she declares that these
so-called laws of nature are as truly an expression of the mind and will
of God as are the Ten Commandments. For example: "It is just as much sin
to violate the laws of our being as to break one of the ten
commandments, for we cannot do either without breaking God's
law."--Testimonies for the Church,vol. 2, p. 70.
Now let us turn to the Bible record of the condition of the whole
"And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face
of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls
of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them." Gen. 6:7.
Why should the Lord repent that He had "made them," the beasts and birds
and creeping things, as well as man? In a few verses farther on is found
"And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all
flesh had corrupted his [A.R.V. their] way upon the earth." Gen. 6:12.
"And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of
cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the
earth, and every man." Gen. 7:21.
The Plan of God for Eden
When God first made the world He placed upon it a wide variety of
animals and plants, distributed over hills and valleys, on sunny plain
and in shady dell. The picture was one of beauty and harmony in
diversity. We can, of course, only conjecture as to details of the
Edenic world. The record declares that God commanded that each form of
life should bring forth "after his kind." Gen. 1:24.
And the fossil records bear silent testimony that between the major
forms of life there appear to be no intermediary forms. There are sharp
gaps instead. Whether the Lord designed that His perfect earth should
also preserve distinctions between the more closely related forms of
life, we can only venture a guess. But if He placed all these more or
less closely related forms upon the earth, it would seem a reasonable
assumption that He did so as an expression of His divine conception of
what a perfect world should be like.
We think this is even more than a reasonable assumption in the light of
specific counsel later given to Israel, as God sought to set up in this
sinful world a government according to the plans of heaven. Through
"Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a
diverse kind; thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither
shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee." Lev.
19:19. (See also Deut. 22:9-11.)
Satan and the Animal Kingdom
The Bible presents a picture of a controversy between God and the devil
that starts with the beginnings of our world and covers everything that
has to do with our world. That Satan, as a free moral agent, has been
allowed of God to roam the earth and use his diabolical skill in
creating disorder and destruction, the Bible amply testifies.
The first instance of Satan's attempt to bring disorder in our world was
his speaking through an animal, a serpent. And though Satan was the
instigator of the serpent's wily words, the Lord included the serpent in
the judgments meted out at the fall.
Where the Scripture record is so brief we must be slow to dogmatize. But
we may find in the fact of Satan, his evil purposes, and this
specifically mentioned instance of his control of a member of the animal
kingdom, a strong suggestion that the animal kingdom has suffered from
his diabolical cunning. We cannot believe that in Eden there were
blood-thirsty beasts, ill-tempered, snarling, and vicious. All believers
in the Bible grant that these evil changes in the beasts were the result
of sin. But how could a beast, which does not have a moral nature, and
therefore has no knowledge of sin, be changed in nature by the entrance
of sin into the life of Adam and Eve? The Christian mind will not permit
the idea that God so changed the animals. In the fact of Satan, whose
domination of the serpent is recorded for our learning, is surely found
the only real explanation of the sorry change that came over the animal
kingdom. Part of that change, we believe, was the confusing of the
species, the blurring of a wondrous picture of divine harmony in diversity.
A Belief Consistent With Scripture
We grant that this belief as to the cause of the confusing of species
cannot be supported by a clear text of Scripture. We affirm only that
this belief is consistent with such scriptures as discuss those earliest
days. And nothing more than this need be affirmed in order to protect
the belief from being lightly dismissed by any Bible believer, as an
unreasonable explanation.
It is evident that on this view of the confusion of species in the
animal kingdom we find a satisfying answer to the question: How could
the crossing of different forms of animal life be described as sin? Was
sin involved in the activity of the serpent? We all answer Yes. But we
immediately think of Satan. Even so with the crossing of animals. Any
and every move to mar God's original, orderly plan can be described only
as sin.
Mrs. White Focuses on Satan as Evil Power
One cannot read far in Mrs. White's writings before becoming aware that
she views the whole drama of our world from its earliest days onward as
a great struggle between God and the devil.[4] Mrs. White pictures Satan
as stalking over the earth, bent on disorder and devastation, even as
the Bible pictures him. It is true that she did not specifically refer
to Satan in the amalgamation statements in Spiritual Gifts. However,
another reference to amalgamation discloses her views as to the cause of
certain of the changes that took place in our world after Adam and Eve
Not one noxious plant was placed in the Lord's great garden, but
after Adam and Eve sinned, poisonous herbs sprang up. In the parable of
the sower the question was asked the Master, "Didst not thou sow good
seed in thy field? how then hath it tares?" The Master answered, "An
enemy hath done this." All tares are sown by the evil one. Every noxious
herb is of his sowing, and by his ingenious methods of amalgamation he
has corrupted the earth with tares.--Selected Messages, book 2, p. 288.
This statement, viewed in the setting of the whole tenor of Mrs. White's
writings which attribute to Satan the active responsibility for all evil
in our world, fully warrants us in concluding that she attributed to
Satan the "confused species" of animals. Hence she would most certainly
describe these "species" as a manifestation of sin, even as she could
properly speak of the appearance of insensate but "noxious, poisonous
herbs" as an exhibit of the activity of the "evil one." Thus her
amalgamation statement regarding "sin" is consistent with all that
Scripture has revealed of earth's early days, in terms of the
interpretation we have given to the key phrase, "amalgamation of man and
beast."
Statement Not Found in "Patriarchs and Prophets"
We come now to the consideration of the fact that the amalgamation
statements were not incorporated by Mrs. White in Patriarchs and
Prophets, now current, and the natural inquiry as to why these
statements do not there appear. Some have conjectured that these two
statements have been purposely suppressed.
The fact that a passage is not retained in later publications, or that a
particular book is not republished, is not in itself valid ground for
assuming that suppression has occurred. The groundlessness of such a
suggestion is made transparently clear when we give these pertinent
From 1858 to 1864 there appeared from Mrs. White's pen four small
volumes carrying the general title Spiritual Gifts. With the exception
of volume 2, which is largely autobiographical, and the latter half of
volume 4, the volumes present a portrayal of sacred history from the
creation to Eden restored.
From 1870 to 1884 she brought forth four larger volumes, under the
title The Spirit of Prophecy. These volumes cover more fully the subject
of man's religious history from Eden to Eden. In large part the material
in Spiritual Gifts, except the autobiographical volume, is reproduced in
The Spirit of Prophecy. Often the text of the former is exactly
reproduced, chapter after chapter, in the latter. In some instances
there are deletions, and often there are additions. A detailed study of
the matter reveals that here apply the principles by which an author, in
bringing out a new and more complete treatment of a theme, may properly
add or subtract or revise. The two amalgamation passages appear verbatim
in The Spirit of Prophecy, in volume 1, published in 1870.
How easy it would have been for Mrs. White to drop out the amalgamation
passages in the 1870 edition. The passages had already raised questions,
as is evidenced by the reference to them in Uriah Smith's work,
Objections to the Visions Answered, published in 1868. That was the time
to "suppress" them if she cared to do so. But two years later she
reproduced the chapters containing the passages, so that both the
passages and the context remain the same.
Up to this time Mrs. White had been writing quite exclusively for the
church. The next step was the planning of books that might be sold to
those outside the Seventh-day Adventist church, even to those who might
not have any religious background or connection. Naturally, included in
such a plan would be the desire to give an appropriate emphasis to
certain truths that distinguish the preaching of the Advent movement.
Now, even as a minister, turning from his congregation to address a
mixed multitude, would quite change his treatment of a subject, by
addition, subtraction, or revision, even so would a writer. In 1890 the
great subject of man's early history, which is the theme of Spiritual
Gifts, volume 3, and Spirit of Prophecy, volume 1, was covered in a new
way in the book Patriarchs and Prophets, prepared for sale to the
general public. This is one of a set of current works which cover the
religious history of man from Eden to Eden, and known generally as the
'Conflict of the Ages' Series. In each volume of the series the field is
covered in an amplified and sometimes new way, and no pretense is made
of reprinting an earlier work. It would be just as consistent to contend
that the whole four volumes of The Spirit of Prophecy have been
suppressed as to contend that a certain five sentences--the total
involved in the amalgamation passages--have been suppressed.
In this connection we remind the reader that the four volumes of
Spiritual Gifts, which are the original source of the amalgamation
passages, are currently available in a facsimile edition.
_______________________________
"2. The mixing or blending of different things, especially of races."
The idea of the blending of races, as one meaning of the word, seems to
have faded out of some dictionaries, probably in view of the fact that
the term "hybridization" is now generally used to denote fusion, or
crossing, of living things. However, the 1949 printing of Funk and
Wagnalls New Standard Dictionary says, under "Amalgamate": "3. To form
into a compound by mixing or blending; unite; combine; as to amalgamate
diverse races. Used specifically, in the southern United States, of
marriage between white and black persons."
A Dictionary of American English (Oxford University Press, 1938-1944, 4
"Amalgamate, v. (1797-, in general sense.) Of persons: a. To combine or
coalesce, esp. by intermarriage. /b. (See quot. 1859) ... 1859 BARTLETT
8 Amalgamate ... is universally applied, in the United States, to the
mixing of the black and white races.
"Amalgamation. (1775- in general sense.) /The fusion of the white and
black races by intermarriage."
[2] Some might contend that the construction of this sentence indicates
that the writer is listing a new crime to the series, something in
addition to the unholy marriages, idolatry, murder, etc. We do not
believe that such a conclusion is required. It is no unusual thing for a
writer to list a series of items, and then, in conclusion, focus upon
one of them, with some such introductory phrase as, "If there is one
item above another . . ." Nor do we believe that any special weight
should be placed on the fact that in thus recapitulating, the writer
amplifies on the particular point under discussion, as though the very
focusing on it seems to draw the writer's mind to a related thought.
This, we believe, is a wholly reasonable way to view the construction
before us. Mrs. White returns, in the last paragraph of the chapter, to
focus on the main cause of the Flood, as earlier set forth in the
chapter. In so doing she expands a little to include the related
"confusion" in the animal kingdom that had resulted from the entrance of
sin into the world.
[3] In the middle of the nineteenth century, when some dark recesses of
the earth had scarcely been touched by explorers, strange stories were
often told as to the kind of savages who dwelt there. Probably some who
first read Mrs. White's amalgamation statements unconsciously allowed
these strange stories to determine their interpretation of the passages.
Needless to say, now that all the savage races are fairly well known,
the testimony of those who have come in contact with them is that though
they may be depraved, they are exceedingly human in every respect, and
need only the opportunity to acquire the white man's habits and vices!
Mrs. White does not comment on the phrase, "certain races of men." She
gives no details as to how the races intermingled after the Flood, nor
does she say that such postdiluvian intermingling was a "base crime." We
need only to note that she makes the simple statement that
"amalgamation" produced "races of men," not races part man and part animal.
[4] A four-volume work by Mrs. White, published between 1870 and 1884,
entitled Spirit of Prophecy, carries the secondary title: The Great
Controversy between Christ and Satan, not to be confused with the later
work Great Controversy, which is an expansion of the fourth volume. In
the first volume the two amalgamation passages are reprinted in their
original context.
Ellen G. White Estate Homepage
Selected Issues Regarding Inspiration and the Life and Work of Ellen G.
White
Post by Whazit Tooyah
" But if there was one sin above another which called for the destruction
of
the race by the flood, it was the base crime of amalgamation of man and
beast which defaced the image of God, and caused confusion everywhere."
"Every species of animal which God had created were preserved in the ark.
The confused species which God did not create, which were the result of
amalgamation, were destroyed by the flood. Since the flood there has been
amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless
varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men."
Both quotes are cut and pasted from Spiritual Gifts pgs 64 & 75.
1. Just to clarify, Mrs. White used the term "base crime" only one other
time, to describe the act Potiphar's wife wanted to commit with Joseph.
2. Sex between humans cannot "deface the image of God," since the product of
that sex would be human "made in the image of God."
3. Confused species can only mean hybrids
4. Nowhere in scripture is can one find marriage between races called
sinful with the exception of the Israelites marrying people outside of the
covenant. There were no racial boundaries for those who wished to be under
the covenant with Israel. Once under the covenant they were free to marry.
Conclusion: If you don't believe that Mrs. White taught that sex with
another species produced animals "which defaced the image of God," then you
have been lied to and/or you are lying to yourself.
Sorry, this is one embarrassment that can't be explained away, at least with
any credibility.
http://www.whiteestate.org/search/search.asp
This is the White Estate's web site so there is no bias against Mrs. White
here. It's quite revealing, just about everything that people claim about
her weird ideas can be verified or proved wrong. I usually read a paragraph
or two before and after a quote to be sure that she is not being taken out
of context. Usually her critics are proven to be right by her own words.
WT
WT
Whazit Tooyah
2006-07-07 04:10:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Korsman
Hi
Amalgamation of animal species doesn't produce fertile hybrids. Even in the
plant world, that is extremely rare. (Orchids are an example.)
Marriage between races was not forbidden, and happened without reprimand.
Moses' wife.
Marriage between religions was not forbidden, and happened without
reprimand. Samson's wife. "But his father and his mother knew not that it
was of the Lord..." Judges 14:4
Neither of these defaces the image of God. Nor does sex. The only
explanation would be animal-human hybrids.
The word amalgamation can validly be used to describe the breeding of
animals with humans. No dictionary lists every possible use of a word,
including those used by Ellen White. No dictionary includes the concept of
Satan mixing evil properties with herbs to produce tares (Ellen White,
Selected Messages, Vol. 2, p. 288) or the union between Christians and the
world (Ellen White, Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, August 23, 1892).
And
science fiction authors have used the term amalgamation to describe breeding
between humans and aliens. Clearly, Ellen White's use of the term fits the
dictionary's definition -
http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?WORD=amalgamation - "2. The
mixing or blending of different elements, races, societies, etc.; also, the
result of such combination or blending; a homogeneous union."
Also, it should be noted that early Adventists defended the position that
she meant breeding between animals and humans. Uriah Smith did this, then
James White examined the book in detail, after which he and Ellen promoted
it. It's very hard to believe they would have done so had James and Ellen
not agreed with his interpretation.
"Moreover, naturalists affirm that the line of demarkation between the human
and animal races is lost in confusion. It is impossible, as they affirm, to
tell just where the human ends and the animal begins. Can we suppose that
this was so ordained of God in the beginning? Rather has not sin marred the
boundaries of these two kingdoms?" Uriah Smith, The Visions of Mrs. E. G.
White, A Manifestation of Spiritual gifts According to the Scripture, p. 103
It was also taught by her contemporaries, including one of her sources, the
book of Jasher.
This is just a desperate attempt to explain away a very embarrassing
statement she made.
If you consider the theory that animals and plants were not created as they
are today, i.e. snarling etc. That their change is due to Satan is absurd.
It implies the same change in humans, also due to Satan.
Take the lion, for example.
It has claws, teeth for a carnivorous lifestyle, and for snarling, a
digestive tract designed for meat, muscles designed for running and tackling
prey.
Are these all additions from Satan? What did God create the lion to look
like? If we remove all these features, he must have made it a sheep-like
creature. So God didn't create lions - Satan turned sheep-like creatures
into lions?? Absurd.
Look at man - we have the typical anatomy and physiology of an omnivore.
Did we have different teeth, a different digestive tract, different enzymes
prior to the fall?
Are we to look at nature and see every carnivore as made by Satan?
God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/
IC | XC
---------
NI | KA
add an s before .co.za
Stephen, I realize that this is off topic, but your answer here interested
me on a different subject. I have a god friend (known him since we were
little kids in Sunday school) who is a strong believer in young earth
creationism, i.e. the earth was created about 6000 years ago based on Bible
genealogies and chronologies as per some count done in the past.
Personally, I tend to be a young Earth creationist but physical evidence
seems to indicate a date much earlier than 4000 BC. (I haul gravel from a
pit that was obviously deposited by some ancient river, probably the Fraser.
Gravel and sand bars are evident in the wall of the pit that show one bar
overlaying another. Rock from this pit looks like normal river gravel,
mostly round and oval rock of all types. I also haul from two other pits
where the gravel seems to be glacier deposits, the rock is smooth.angular,
oblong with much broken rock. The curious thing is that the apparent
glacial rock is from pits closer to a current river and the river rock in on
a rise above the flats where the glacial rock is deposited.)

+What interested me was your statement that the animals were created as they
are. My friend seems to agree with the idea that lions ate grass like a
lamb. His belief is that there were no carnivores before the fall because
death was a result of the curse of the fall; without death, no carnivores.
I brought up all the ideas of animals that are clearly designed to be
carnivores, teeth designed for tearing flesh, muscles and skeletons designed
for the chase. Other animals designed to one way or another elude the
carnivores either by speed, stealth or other defense. His claim was that
just as the earth was changed by God when the ground was cursed so were
animals at the same time. (Gen 3:10-19) He also bases his belief on the
prophecies of the lion lying down with the lamb etc. The belief is that
this is a vision of the future when everything will be as it was before the
fall.

Personally, I can think of no scripture that states that;
1. There was no death of animals before the fall and;
2. The death of animals began with the animals killed to clothe Adam and
Eve.

Are you aware of this school of thought, what are your thoughts on this?
--
WT

By this all men will know that you are My disciples,
if you have love for one another







Sniped EGW apologetic
Stephen Korsman
2006-07-07 17:36:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
Hi
Amalgamation of animal species doesn't produce fertile hybrids. Even in the
plant world, that is extremely rare. (Orchids are an example.)
Marriage between races was not forbidden, and happened without reprimand.
Moses' wife.
Marriage between religions was not forbidden, and happened without
reprimand. Samson's wife. "But his father and his mother knew not that it
was of the Lord..." Judges 14:4
Neither of these defaces the image of God. Nor does sex. The only
explanation would be animal-human hybrids.
The word amalgamation can validly be used to describe the breeding of
animals with humans. No dictionary lists every possible use of a word,
including those used by Ellen White. No dictionary includes the concept of
Satan mixing evil properties with herbs to produce tares (Ellen White,
Selected Messages, Vol. 2, p. 288) or the union between Christians and the
world (Ellen White, Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, August 23, 1892).
And
science fiction authors have used the term amalgamation to describe breeding
between humans and aliens. Clearly, Ellen White's use of the term fits the
dictionary's definition -
http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?WORD=amalgamation - "2. The
mixing or blending of different elements, races, societies, etc.; also, the
result of such combination or blending; a homogeneous union."
Also, it should be noted that early Adventists defended the position that
she meant breeding between animals and humans. Uriah Smith did this, then
James White examined the book in detail, after which he and Ellen promoted
it. It's very hard to believe they would have done so had James and Ellen
not agreed with his interpretation.
"Moreover, naturalists affirm that the line of demarkation between the human
and animal races is lost in confusion. It is impossible, as they affirm, to
tell just where the human ends and the animal begins. Can we suppose that
this was so ordained of God in the beginning? Rather has not sin marred the
boundaries of these two kingdoms?" Uriah Smith, The Visions of Mrs. E. G.
White, A Manifestation of Spiritual gifts According to the Scripture, p. 103
It was also taught by her contemporaries, including one of her sources, the
book of Jasher.
This is just a desperate attempt to explain away a very embarrassing
statement she made.
If you consider the theory that animals and plants were not created as they
are today, i.e. snarling etc. That their change is due to Satan is absurd.
It implies the same change in humans, also due to Satan.
Take the lion, for example.
It has claws, teeth for a carnivorous lifestyle, and for snarling, a
digestive tract designed for meat, muscles designed for running and tackling
prey.
Are these all additions from Satan? What did God create the lion to look
like? If we remove all these features, he must have made it a sheep-like
creature. So God didn't create lions - Satan turned sheep-like creatures
into lions?? Absurd.
Look at man - we have the typical anatomy and physiology of an omnivore.
Did we have different teeth, a different digestive tract, different enzymes
prior to the fall?
Are we to look at nature and see every carnivore as made by Satan?
God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/
IC | XC
---------
NI | KA
add an s before .co.za
Stephen, I realize that this is off topic, but your answer here interested
me on a different subject. I have a god friend (known him since we were
little kids in Sunday school) who is a strong believer in young earth
creationism, i.e. the earth was created about 6000 years ago based on Bible
genealogies and chronologies as per some count done in the past.
Personally, I tend to be a young Earth creationist but physical evidence
seems to indicate a date much earlier than 4000 BC. (I haul gravel from a
pit that was obviously deposited by some ancient river, probably the Fraser.
Gravel and sand bars are evident in the wall of the pit that show one bar
overlaying another. Rock from this pit looks like normal river gravel,
mostly round and oval rock of all types. I also haul from two other pits
where the gravel seems to be glacier deposits, the rock is smooth.angular,
oblong with much broken rock. The curious thing is that the apparent
glacial rock is from pits closer to a current river and the river rock in on
a rise above the flats where the glacial rock is deposited.)
+What interested me was your statement that the animals were created as they
are. My friend seems to agree with the idea that lions ate grass like a
lamb. His belief is that there were no carnivores before the fall because
death was a result of the curse of the fall; without death, no carnivores.
I brought up all the ideas of animals that are clearly designed to be
carnivores, teeth designed for tearing flesh, muscles and skeletons designed
for the chase. Other animals designed to one way or another elude the
carnivores either by speed, stealth or other defense. His claim was that
just as the earth was changed by God when the ground was cursed so were
animals at the same time. (Gen 3:10-19) He also bases his belief on the
prophecies of the lion lying down with the lamb etc. The belief is that
this is a vision of the future when everything will be as it was before the
fall.
Personally, I can think of no scripture that states that;
1. There was no death of animals before the fall and;
2. The death of animals began with the animals killed to clothe Adam and
Eve.
Are you aware of this school of thought, what are your thoughts on this?
My view is as follows (I'll mix the views on science and theology together,
rather going by time):

I believe in God creating through the process of evolution.
The world was created at the Big Bang, and the earth is millions of years
old.
Genesis' account of the creation is largely allegorical. It was written as
poetry, and I think it can happily be interpreted as such.
Death existed from the beginning of creation.
The cause of death was sin, which occurred much later.
(The cause of our redemption was at the cross, but its grace existed
pre-Cross, and the plan for it existed pre-creation ... the idea that sin's
effects can go both ways in time has a precedent. I see sin as affecting
not the timeline, but creation itself.)
Adam and Eve may have been individuals, or a group. If so, they existed
when a bottleneck occurred in human evolution, and genetically this can be
seen with X-chromosome Eve and Y-chromosome Adam (not individuals, but a
common ancestry.)

In a literal creationist scenario, I can't see the logic of how death could
exist prior to the fall of man. What was its cause? Was it sin, or was
death caused by something other than sin?

If death was caused by sin, then, in such a scenario, it couldn't exist
prior to sin. And then the whole lions with teeth issue becomes quite
problematic.

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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•R L Measures
2006-05-29 20:25:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Korsman
B.
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Stephen Korsman
Hi
"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and
that
Post by Stephen Korsman
her
Post by Stephen Korsman
writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and
authoritative,
Post by Stephen Korsman
especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not believe that
the
Post by Stephen Korsman
quality
Post by Stephen Korsman
or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is
different
Post by Stephen Korsman
from
Post by Stephen Korsman
that of Scripture." -
http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Stephen Korsman
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the
degree
Post by Stephen Korsman
to
Post by Stephen Korsman
which the Bible is inspired???
Yes. God isn't partial. When God speaks through the Holy Spirit , he
inspires all equally.
You have a problem with that concept?.
. Some people might have a problem believing that African pygmies
were
the result of humans having sex with chimps.
Yes, many do( that includes all Adventists) and some people (myself
included) see a problem with people who glory and revel in maligning
another.
*** Is it maligning to quote what someone wrote? As of 1962, a SDA
friend I used to work with at Raytheon, Point Mugu had a copy of one of
Ellen White's original books wherein she stated this. Naturally,
subsequent editions of the book did not.
Post by Stephen Korsman
And then there's those who are not responsible or honest enough
verify if something is actually true before repeating it. Even Atheists
know slander is wrong, and for a Christian who reads that No liars will
enter heaven or inherit eternal life, there's no excuse for not knowing
better. I'm sure you fit in there somewhere...
*** If she wrote it, and it's interesting, I'll quote it.
Whazit Tooyah
2006-05-29 19:06:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Stephen Korsman
Hi
"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that
her
Post by Stephen Korsman
writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and
authoritative,
Post by Stephen Korsman
especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not believe that the
quality
Post by Stephen Korsman
or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is different
from
Post by Stephen Korsman
that of Scripture." - http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the degree
to
Post by Stephen Korsman
which the Bible is inspired???
Yes. God isn't partial. When God speaks through the Holy Spirit , he
inspires all equally.
You have a problem with that concept?.
. Some people might have a problem believing that African pygmies were
the result of humans having sex with chimps.
Or that wearing wigs causes insanity, or eating meat arouses the animal
(sexual) passions, or that chess and checkers are sinful, or that
masturbation causes a laundry list of illnesses. Ellen G. White is about as
divinely inspired as Charles Darwin or Karl Marx.

WT
•R L Measures
2006-05-29 20:31:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Stephen Korsman
Hi
"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that
her
Post by Stephen Korsman
writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and
authoritative,
Post by Stephen Korsman
especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not believe that the
quality
Post by Stephen Korsman
or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is different
from
Post by Stephen Korsman
that of Scripture." - http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the degree
to
Post by Stephen Korsman
which the Bible is inspired???
Yes. God isn't partial. When God speaks through the Holy Spirit , he
inspires all equally.
You have a problem with that concept?.
. Some people might have a problem believing that African pygmies were
the result of humans having sex with chimps.
Or that wearing wigs causes insanity, or eating meat arouses the animal
(sexual) passions,
*** I know a teenager who apparently gets sexually aroused when she eats
sausage.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
or that chess and checkers are sinful, or that
masturbation causes a laundry list of illnesses. Ellen G. White is about as
divinely inspired as Charles Darwin or Karl Marx.
*** Sure, but Ellen White was right about masturbation causing eye
problems because she had myopia.

cheers, WT.
Teresita
2006-06-16 02:45:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by •R L Measures
*** I know a teenager who apparently gets sexually aroused when she eats
sausage.
Interesting. A malady that is its own cure.

--
Encyclopedia Teresita

http://home.comcast.net/~rubyredinger
•R L Measures
2006-06-16 11:41:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Teresita
Post by •R L Measures
*** I know a teenager who apparently gets sexually aroused when she eats
sausage.
Interesting. A malady that is its own cure.
*** she does not ingest it since that would preclude future utilization
for the purpose of copulation.
Stephen Korsman
2006-05-30 15:11:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Stephen Korsman
Hi
"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that
her
Post by Stephen Korsman
writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and
authoritative,
Post by Stephen Korsman
especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not believe that the
quality
Post by Stephen Korsman
or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is different
from
Post by Stephen Korsman
that of Scripture." - http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the degree
to
Post by Stephen Korsman
which the Bible is inspired???
Yes. God isn't partial. When God speaks through the Holy Spirit , he
inspires all equally.
You have a problem with that concept?.
. Some people might have a problem believing that African pygmies were
the result of humans having sex with chimps.
Or that wearing wigs causes insanity, or eating meat arouses the animal
(sexual) passions, or that chess and checkers are sinful, or that
masturbation causes a laundry list of illnesses. Ellen G. White is about as
divinely inspired as Charles Darwin or Karl Marx.
Chess is sinful? I didn't know that one.

Sex with chimps - HIV came from chimps. Probably not sexually though.

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

IC | XC
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NI | KA

add an s before .co.za
Whazit Tooyah
2006-05-31 01:08:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Stephen Korsman
Hi
"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that
her
Post by Stephen Korsman
writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and
authoritative,
Post by Stephen Korsman
especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not believe that the
quality
Post by Stephen Korsman
or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is different
from
Post by Stephen Korsman
that of Scripture." -
http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the
degree
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
to
Post by Stephen Korsman
which the Bible is inspired???
Yes. God isn't partial. When God speaks through the Holy Spirit , he
inspires all equally.
You have a problem with that concept?.
. Some people might have a problem believing that African pygmies were
the result of humans having sex with chimps.
Or that wearing wigs causes insanity, or eating meat arouses the animal
(sexual) passions, or that chess and checkers are sinful, or that
masturbation causes a laundry list of illnesses. Ellen G. White is about
as
Post by Whazit Tooyah
divinely inspired as Charles Darwin or Karl Marx.
Chess is sinful? I didn't know that one.
Yep, read it in my copy of The Adventist Home

" There are amusements, such as dancing, card playing, chess, checkers,
etc., which we cannot approve because Heaven condemns them. These amusements
open the door for great evil. They are not beneficial in their tendency, but
have an exciting influence, producing in some minds a passion for those
plays which lead to gambling and dissipation. All such plays should be
condemned by Christians, and something perfectly harmless should be
substituted in their place." [The Adventist Home pg. 498 para. 2]
Post by Stephen Korsman
Sex with chimps - HIV came from chimps. Probably not sexually though.
God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/
IC | XC
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Stephen Korsman
2006-05-31 15:47:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Stephen Korsman
Hi
"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that
her
Post by Stephen Korsman
writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and
authoritative,
Post by Stephen Korsman
especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not believe that the
quality
Post by Stephen Korsman
or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is different
from
Post by Stephen Korsman
that of Scripture." -
http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the
degree
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
to
Post by Stephen Korsman
which the Bible is inspired???
Yes. God isn't partial. When God speaks through the Holy Spirit , he
inspires all equally.
You have a problem with that concept?.
. Some people might have a problem believing that African pygmies were
the result of humans having sex with chimps.
Or that wearing wigs causes insanity, or eating meat arouses the animal
(sexual) passions, or that chess and checkers are sinful, or that
masturbation causes a laundry list of illnesses. Ellen G. White is about
as
Post by Whazit Tooyah
divinely inspired as Charles Darwin or Karl Marx.
Chess is sinful? I didn't know that one.
Yep, read it in my copy of The Adventist Home
" There are amusements, such as dancing, card playing, chess, checkers,
etc., which we cannot approve because Heaven condemns them. These amusements
open the door for great evil. They are not beneficial in their tendency, but
have an exciting influence, producing in some minds a passion for those
plays which lead to gambling and dissipation. All such plays should be
condemned by Christians, and something perfectly harmless should be
substituted in their place." [The Adventist Home pg. 498 para. 2]
If chess is bad, what is perfectly harmless?

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

IC | XC
---------
NI | KA

add an s before .co.za
KA6UUP
2006-07-02 03:01:19 UTC
Permalink
In the 19th century wigs were made using among other harmful things,
arsenic and mercury. Not only those who wore wigs but wig makers as well
as hat makers suffered from arsenic and mercury poisoning.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Stephen Korsman
Hi
"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that
her
Post by Stephen Korsman
writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and
authoritative,
Post by Stephen Korsman
especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not believe that the
quality
Post by Stephen Korsman
or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is different
from
Post by Stephen Korsman
that of Scripture." - http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the degree
to
Post by Stephen Korsman
which the Bible is inspired???
Yes. God isn't partial. When God speaks through the Holy Spirit , he
inspires all equally.
You have a problem with that concept?.
. Some people might have a problem believing that African pygmies were
the result of humans having sex with chimps.
Or that wearing wigs causes insanity, or eating meat arouses the animal
(sexual) passions, or that chess and checkers are sinful, or that
masturbation causes a laundry list of illnesses. Ellen G. White is about as
divinely inspired as Charles Darwin or Karl Marx.
WT
Whazit Tooyah
2006-07-07 13:24:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by KA6UUP
In the 19th century wigs were made using among other harmful things,
arsenic and mercury. Not only those who wore wigs but wig makers as well
as hat makers suffered from arsenic and mercury poisoning.
Yeah right.
Nice try, but Mrs. White said that the insanity was caused by the heating of
the base of the brain not and heavy metal poisoning.
Post by KA6UUP
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Stephen Korsman
Hi
"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that
her
Post by Stephen Korsman
writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and
authoritative,
Post by Stephen Korsman
especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not believe that the
quality
Post by Stephen Korsman
or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is different
from
Post by Stephen Korsman
that of Scripture." - http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the degree
to
Post by Stephen Korsman
which the Bible is inspired???
Yes. God isn't partial. When God speaks through the Holy Spirit , he
inspires all equally.
You have a problem with that concept?.
. Some people might have a problem believing that African pygmies were
the result of humans having sex with chimps.
Or that wearing wigs causes insanity, or eating meat arouses the animal
(sexual) passions, or that chess and checkers are sinful, or that
masturbation causes a laundry list of illnesses. Ellen G. White is about
as divinely inspired as Charles Darwin or Karl Marx.
WT
Stephen Korsman
2006-07-08 14:18:51 UTC
Permalink
Mrs.White said that the insanity was caused by the heating
of the base of the brain not and heavy metal poisoning.
Dear WT, I didn't know you were a Mrs.White enthusiast.
Please give the reference for the above, as I couldn't find it.
Also, which of the White writings or books have you read?
Thank you.
Andrew
The Health Reformer, October 1, 1871, paragraphs 9-11
Fashion loads the heads of women with artificial braids and pads, which do
not add to their beauty, but give an unnatural shape to the head. The hair
is strained and forced into unnatural positions, and it is not possible
for
the heads of these fashionable ladies to be comfortable. The **artificial
hair and pads covering the base of the brain, heat and excite the spinal
nerves centering in the brain.** The head should ever be kept cool. The
heat
caused by these artificials induces the blood to the brain. The action of
the blood upon the lower or animal organs of the brain, causes unnatural
activity, tends to recklessness in morals, and the mind and heart is in
danger of being corrupted. As the animal organs are excited and
strengthened, the moral are enfeebled. The moral and intellectual powers
of
the mind become servants to the animal.
In consequence of the brain being congested its nerves lose their healthy
action, and take on morbid conditions, making it almost impossible to
arouse
the moral sensibilities. Such lose their power to discern sacred things.
The
unnatural heat caused by these artificial deformities about the head,
induces the blood to the brain, producing congestion, and causing the
natural hair to fall off, producing baldness. Thus the natural is
sacrificed
to the artificial.
**Many have lost their reason, and become hopelessly insane, by following
this deforming fashion.** Yet the slaves to fashion will continue to thus
dress their heads, and suffer horrible disease and premature death, rather
than be out of fashion.
You should read the writings of your prophet. I did and because of it I
rejected Seventh-day Adventism as a false religion. One going beyond the
Bible and adding rules of conduct that are based in fantasy rather than in
scripture or science. I also found false doctrines that are unbiblical.
Things like the above EGW quote would be extremely funny except for all
those who have been duped and still believe in her as a prophet of God.
Why do people defend Ellen White's absurd teachings?

What sort of logic is involved?

Apparently there is a group of Australians that is claiming that certain
non-white races are the result of humans mating with animals.

I've been told that yes, masturbation does cause tuberculosis - Ellen White
was just ahead of even today's science.

Weird.

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

IC | XC
---------
NI | KA

add an s before .co.za
Whazit Tooyah
2006-07-08 16:48:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Mrs.White said that the insanity was caused by the heating
of the base of the brain not and heavy metal poisoning.
Dear WT, I didn't know you were a Mrs.White enthusiast.
Please give the reference for the above, as I couldn't find it.
Also, which of the White writings or books have you read?
Thank you.
Andrew
The Health Reformer, October 1, 1871, paragraphs 9-11
Fashion loads the heads of women with artificial braids and pads, which do
not add to their beauty, but give an unnatural shape to the head. The hair
is strained and forced into unnatural positions, and it is not possible
for
the heads of these fashionable ladies to be comfortable. The **artificial
hair and pads covering the base of the brain, heat and excite the spinal
nerves centering in the brain.** The head should ever be kept cool. The
heat
caused by these artificials induces the blood to the brain. The action of
the blood upon the lower or animal organs of the brain, causes unnatural
activity, tends to recklessness in morals, and the mind and heart is in
danger of being corrupted. As the animal organs are excited and
strengthened, the moral are enfeebled. The moral and intellectual powers
of
the mind become servants to the animal.
In consequence of the brain being congested its nerves lose their healthy
action, and take on morbid conditions, making it almost impossible to
arouse
the moral sensibilities. Such lose their power to discern sacred things.
The
unnatural heat caused by these artificial deformities about the head,
induces the blood to the brain, producing congestion, and causing the
natural hair to fall off, producing baldness. Thus the natural is
sacrificed
to the artificial.
**Many have lost their reason, and become hopelessly insane, by following
this deforming fashion.** Yet the slaves to fashion will continue to thus
dress their heads, and suffer horrible disease and premature death, rather
than be out of fashion.
You should read the writings of your prophet. I did and because of it I
rejected Seventh-day Adventism as a false religion. One going beyond the
Bible and adding rules of conduct that are based in fantasy rather than in
scripture or science. I also found false doctrines that are unbiblical.
Things like the above EGW quote would be extremely funny except for all
those who have been duped and still believe in her as a prophet of God.
Why do people defend Ellen White's absurd teachings?
What sort of logic is involved?
Apparently there is a group of Australians that is claiming that certain
non-white races are the result of humans mating with animals.
I've been told that yes, masturbation does cause tuberculosis - Ellen White
was just ahead of even today's science.
If this were true tuberculosis would be an epidemic exceeding all others.
I've heard the 'Ellen White ahead of her times' saying before and laugh
every time I do. Reading her writings it is extremely obvious that she was a
product of her times and wrote according to the mores and science of her
time. I doubt that much of her ideas were original with her, most were
probably from pseudo-science authors that she read or heard about. She
simply added "the Lord has shown me" or some other phrase to give her
writings divine authority. How she ever got a following in the nineteenth
century is a mystery to me. How she keeps a following in the twenty-first
century is even a bigger mystery.
--
WT

By this all men will know that you are My disciples,
if you have love for one another
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Weird.
God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/
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Andrew
2006-07-08 18:50:42 UTC
Permalink
Reading her writings it is extremely obvious...
Exactly what books or writings of hers have you read?
Whazit Tooyah
2006-07-08 19:51:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Reading her writings it is extremely obvious...
Exactly what books or writings of hers have you read?
I started with Patriarchs and Prophets but found too much nonsense in the
book. I decided to skip the in-between books and read The Great Controversy
which I found to be full of the same kind of personal opinion presented as
'Thus says the Lord' as in the previous book. Add to that the heresy of the
investigative judgment as presented in the chapter titled 'Facing Life's
Consequences" or something like that. Other than that, I have read bits and
pieces here and there. She had some things of value to be said, but nothing
that hasn't been said by others and in a more readable style in books by
modern authors.

Mrs. White is no more a prophet than is any other. Her writings are full of
contradictions to the Bible and to her own writings of a previous time.
Sydney Cleveland produced an article on the contradictions of Mrs. White. I
went through it item by item and verified what he wrote through Mrs. White's
writings and the Bible. Mr. Cleveland listed 50 contradictions, I was able
to verify 42 as clearly contradictions. The remaining 8 were either not
contradictions, or were nit-picking in my opinion.

Now, how about you. How many books on theology that are not written by or
approved by SDAs have you read?
--
WT

By this all men will know that you are My disciples,
if you have love for one another
Andrew
2006-07-09 20:23:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Andrew
Reading her writings it is extremely obvious...
Exactly what books or writings of hers have you read?
I started with Patriarchs and Prophets but found too much nonsense in the
book. I decided to skip the in-between books and read The Great Controversy
which I found to be full of the same kind of personal opinion presented as
'Thus says the Lord' as in the previous book. Add to that the heresy of the
investigative judgment as presented in the chapter titled 'Facing Life's
Consequences" or something like that. Other than that, I have read bits and
pieces here and there. She had some things of value to be said, but nothing
that hasn't been said by others and in a more readable style in books by
modern authors.
You read "bits and pieces" and a portion of two books. Then you went to
the anti-EGW web sites for the remainder of your knowledge about EGW.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Mrs.White is no more a prophet than is any other.
She never made the claim of being a prophet.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Her writings are full of contradictions to the Bible and to her own writings
of a previous time.
If that is your assessment, then I am curious why don't you devote your
talents to the Scriptures themselves, instead of trashing someone whose
work has been to lead others to Christ and to His word?
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Sydney Cleveland produced an article on the contradictions of Mrs. White.
I went through it item by item and verified what he wrote through Mrs. White's
writings and the Bible. Mr. Cleveland listed 50 contradictions, I was able to
verify 42 as clearly contradictions. The remaining 8 were either not
contradictions, or were nit-picking in my opinion.
If that is how you see it, then I am curious why don't you devote your talents
to the light that you know is in the Scriptures, instead of trashing one whose
work has been to lead others to Christ and His word in the work of preparing
a people for His soon return in power and great glory?
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Now, how about you. How many books on theology that are not written by
or approved by SDAs have you read?
I have made no claims to be a theologian. The greatest theologian would have
been Christ Himself, yet it was the "theologians of the day" who cried for Him
to be crucified.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
--
WT
By this all men will know that you are My disciples,
if you have love for one another
On this we agree, but to reveal that love is only possible through a
connection with Him. Because the kind of love He is talking about
is contrary to our fallen natures.


Andrew
Whazit Tooyah
2006-07-09 22:37:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Andrew
Reading her writings it is extremely obvious...
Exactly what books or writings of hers have you read?
I started with Patriarchs and Prophets but found too much nonsense in the
book. I decided to skip the in-between books and read The Great Controversy
which I found to be full of the same kind of personal opinion presented as
'Thus says the Lord' as in the previous book. Add to that the heresy of the
investigative judgment as presented in the chapter titled 'Facing Life's
Consequences" or something like that. Other than that, I have read bits and
pieces here and there. She had some things of value to be said, but nothing
that hasn't been said by others and in a more readable style in books by
modern authors.
You read "bits and pieces" and a portion of two books. Then you went to
the anti-EGW web sites for the remainder of your knowledge about EGW.
You misrepresented what I said. I read the first book and then the Great
Controversy until I got through the chapter on the investigative judgment.
How much of the writings of Joseph Smith would you read once you discovered
error. I stopped reading Mrs. White after I came to the conclusion that
they were no more prophetic than any of her contemporaries.

Perhaps you should go to these anti Ellen sites and read what the have and
prove it wrong. I tried to prove it to be wrong and I couldn't, in fact I
found these sites to mostly present the truth about Adventism and Ellen G.
White. They also present the documentation to back up what they say. The
one site that was most influential in turning me from Adventism was the
White Estate web site and the searchable writings of Mrs. White. Without
it, I would have probably decided that Mrs. Whites critics were either
misrepresenting her or taking her writings out of context. The White Estate
web site showed me that her critics were being truthful.
Post by Andrew
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Mrs.White is no more a prophet than is any other.
She never made the claim of being a prophet.
Not quite true. She said that " My commission embraces the work of a
prophet..." This is in effect saying that she is a prophet. Of course you
maybe correct in a literal sense, she never actually said 'I am a prophet.'
However, she did claim to be a prophet.

Selected Messages Book 1, page 35, paragraph 6
Chapter Title: Ellen G. White and Her Writings
The Work of a Prophet and More
During the discourse, I said that I did not claim to be a prophetess. Some
were surprised at this statement, and as much is being said in regard to
it, I will make an explanation. Others have called me a prophetess, but I
have never assumed that title. I have not felt that it was my duty thus to
designate myself. Those who boldly assume that they are prophets in this our
day are often a reproach to the cause of Christ. **My work includes much
more than this name signifies.** I regard myself as a messenger, entrusted
by the Lord with messages for His people.--Letter 55, 1905.

Selected Messages Book 1, page 36, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: Ellen G. White and Her Writings
I am now instructed that I am not to be hindered in my work by those who
engage in suppositions regarding its nature, whose minds are struggling with
so many intricate problems connected with the supposed work of a prophet.
**My commission embraces the work of a prophet,** but it does not end there.
It embraces much more than the minds of those who have been sowing the seeds
of unbelief can comprehend.--Letter 244, 1906. (Addressed to elders of
Battle Creek church.)
Post by Andrew
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Her writings are full of contradictions to the Bible and to her own writings
of a previous time.
If that is your assessment, then I am curious why don't you devote your
talents to the Scriptures themselves, instead of trashing someone whose
work has been to lead others to Christ and to His word?
There is no shame in trashing a liar. Her writings have also led many into
a belief that keeping the law and having faith in the church will save them.
Post by Andrew
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Sydney Cleveland produced an article on the contradictions of Mrs. White.
I went through it item by item and verified what he wrote through Mrs. White's
writings and the Bible. Mr. Cleveland listed 50 contradictions, I was able to
verify 42 as clearly contradictions. The remaining 8 were either not
contradictions, or were nit-picking in my opinion.
If that is how you see it, then I am curious why don't you devote your talents
to the light that you know is in the Scriptures, instead of trashing one whose
work has been to lead others to Christ and His word in the work of preparing
a people for His soon return in power and great glory?
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Now, how about you. How many books on theology that are not written by
or approved by SDAs have you read?
I have made no claims to be a theologian. The greatest theologian would have
been Christ Himself, yet it was the "theologians of the day" who cried for Him
to be crucified.
A good weasel answer. I didn't ask you if you were a theologian. I asked
if you had ever read anything that wasn't Adventist approved. It seems you
have read only SDA approved books and have no idea what scripture actually
says without your Adventist colored glasses.
--
WT

By this all men will know that you are My disciples,
if you have love for one another
Post by Andrew
Post by Whazit Tooyah
--
WT
By this all men will know that you are My disciples,
if you have love for one another
On this we agree, but to reveal that love is only possible through a
connection with Him. Because the kind of love He is talking about
is contrary to our fallen natures.
Andrew
Stephen Korsman
2006-07-10 15:48:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Andrew
Reading her writings it is extremely obvious...
Exactly what books or writings of hers have you read?
I started with Patriarchs and Prophets but found too much nonsense in the
book. I decided to skip the in-between books and read The Great Controversy
which I found to be full of the same kind of personal opinion presented as
'Thus says the Lord' as in the previous book. Add to that the heresy of the
investigative judgment as presented in the chapter titled 'Facing Life's
Consequences" or something like that. Other than that, I have read bits and
pieces here and there. She had some things of value to be said, but nothing
that hasn't been said by others and in a more readable style in books by
modern authors.
You read "bits and pieces" and a portion of two books. Then you went to
the anti-EGW web sites for the remainder of your knowledge about EGW.
It would appear that his study of Adventism is far more in depth than your
study of Catholicism. What you describe above is exactly what you've done
with Catholicism, not what he or I have done with Adventism. You're the one
who quotes newspaper clippings. You're projecting your own problems onto
him.

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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Stephen Korsman
2006-07-08 19:00:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Mrs.White said that the insanity was caused by the heating
of the base of the brain not and heavy metal poisoning.
Dear WT, I didn't know you were a Mrs.White enthusiast.
Please give the reference for the above, as I couldn't find it.
Also, which of the White writings or books have you read?
Thank you.
Andrew
The Health Reformer, October 1, 1871, paragraphs 9-11
Fashion loads the heads of women with artificial braids and pads, which do
not add to their beauty, but give an unnatural shape to the head. The hair
is strained and forced into unnatural positions, and it is not possible
for
the heads of these fashionable ladies to be comfortable. The **artificial
hair and pads covering the base of the brain, heat and excite the spinal
nerves centering in the brain.** The head should ever be kept cool. The
heat
caused by these artificials induces the blood to the brain. The action of
the blood upon the lower or animal organs of the brain, causes unnatural
activity, tends to recklessness in morals, and the mind and heart is in
danger of being corrupted. As the animal organs are excited and
strengthened, the moral are enfeebled. The moral and intellectual powers
of
the mind become servants to the animal.
In consequence of the brain being congested its nerves lose their healthy
action, and take on morbid conditions, making it almost impossible to
arouse
the moral sensibilities. Such lose their power to discern sacred things.
The
unnatural heat caused by these artificial deformities about the head,
induces the blood to the brain, producing congestion, and causing the
natural hair to fall off, producing baldness. Thus the natural is
sacrificed
to the artificial.
**Many have lost their reason, and become hopelessly insane, by following
this deforming fashion.** Yet the slaves to fashion will continue to thus
dress their heads, and suffer horrible disease and premature death, rather
than be out of fashion.
You should read the writings of your prophet. I did and because of it I
rejected Seventh-day Adventism as a false religion. One going beyond the
Bible and adding rules of conduct that are based in fantasy rather than in
scripture or science. I also found false doctrines that are unbiblical.
Things like the above EGW quote would be extremely funny except for all
those who have been duped and still believe in her as a prophet of God.
Why do people defend Ellen White's absurd teachings?
What sort of logic is involved?
Apparently there is a group of Australians that is claiming that certain
non-white races are the result of humans mating with animals.
I've been told that yes, masturbation does cause tuberculosis - Ellen White
was just ahead of even today's science.
If this were true tuberculosis would be an epidemic exceeding all others.
I've heard the 'Ellen White ahead of her times' saying before and laugh
every time I do. Reading her writings it is extremely obvious that she was a
product of her times and wrote according to the mores and science of her
time. I doubt that much of her ideas were original with her, most were
probably from pseudo-science authors that she read or heard about. She
simply added "the Lord has shown me" or some other phrase to give her
writings divine authority. How she ever got a following in the nineteenth
century is a mystery to me. How she keeps a following in the twenty-first
century is even a bigger mystery.
I think Adventism is unwilling to give up on its uniqueness. If they
dropped Ellen White, their entire theology would have to change. The
Investigative Judgement would go ... the Sabbath would be badly affected ...
and their anti-Catholic traits would be hugely diminished. Its member would
be better off. Its leadership would face a huge crisis.

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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Stephen Korsman
2006-07-10 04:21:10 UTC
Permalink
Is THIS the agenda of those Jesuits who have infiltrated into
Adventism?
Andrew, honestly, Jesuits have bigger fish to fry.
Then why has Korsman dedicated his time and entire
life to it?
Andrew, don't be such a Susan. Jesuits are priests, and with the
shortage of priests in the Catholic Church right now, any priest is
busier than a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest. Besides, if
Korsman was a Jesuit the rules say he has to append a "S.J." to his
name for station identification.
The comment was referring to the *agenda* not that he was a Jesuit.
The comment referred to the agenda in the context of my comments, and
Jesuits. Obviously that was linking me to them. This is another side
issue - a diversionary tactic to change the subject to Jesuit agendas and
plots instead of dealing with the evidence.

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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Stephen Korsman
2006-07-10 04:21:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Korsman
I think Adventism is unwilling to give up on its uniqueness. If they
dropped Ellen White, their entire theology would have to change. The
Investigative Judgement would go ... the Sabbath would be badly affected ...
and their anti-Catholic traits would be hugely diminished. Its member would
be better off. Its leadership would face a huge crisis.
Is THIS the agenda of those Jesuits who have infiltrated into Adventism?
I don't know. Ask your pastor.

You're not the person to be speaking about agendas, Andrew. You're the one
who refuses to represent Catholic teaching honestly. You've claimed things
about Catholicism, then seen the evidence that you're wrong, refused to
discuss it further, and then claimed the same things over and over again.
That can only be seen as deliberate.

http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/post/index/148/Andrew

The only purpose your continued misrepresentation of Catholic beliefs serves
is to highlight the fact that Adventism maligns the Catholic faith based on
misinformation and propaganda, and can't defend its claims when the facts
are presented. If anyone can be accused of a Jesuit agenda to make
Adventism look silly, it's you and those like you whose claims show that
Adventism's treatment of Catholicism is dishonest.

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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Stephen Korsman
2006-07-10 04:21:11 UTC
Permalink
Is THIS the agenda of those Jesuits who have infiltrated into
Adventism?
Andrew, honestly, Jesuits have bigger fish to fry.
Then why has Korsman dedicated his time and entire
life to it?
From what I can see it's because he is a little pissed at the
accusations and
attacks by the Adventist church against the Catholic church. Adventists
don't hold the patent on attacks on Catholicism, but they do seem to be
the
most vocal.
Truth is, that the Adventist church does not attack the Catholic church,
The truth is that the Adventist church tells deliberate lies about the
Catholic Church and its beliefs.
but has exposed falsehoods within 'Catholicism' in relation to prophecy.
Falsehoods cannot be exposed by telling deliberate lies about Catholicism,
Andrew. Your misrepresentations have been exposed several times, at which
point you retreat, and then offer the same misrepresentations at a later
time, never addressing the actual Catholic teachings as explained. You
always change the issue to whether or not I am faithful to Catholic
teaching, as if you understand it and I don't. Yet when the evidence that I
do and you don't is presented, there is silence until the next time you post
the same misrepresentations over again.

http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/post/index/148/Andrew
If this has led Korsman to hate Adventists then he has fallen to the snare
of the enemy of souls. For if we don't learn to love one another, then we
can have no part in His eternal kingdom of love.
I don't hate Adventists. I dislike the way they tell lies about my faith,
and work to show why their claims are not true. When a religion needs to
tell lies about other religions in order to look good itself, something must
be seriously lacking there.

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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Teresita
2006-07-08 19:09:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Korsman
Apparently there is a group of Australians that is claiming that certain
non-white races are the result of humans mating with animals.
There is a wonderful mechanism in the human egg cell. It is encased in a
thick wall of sugars that will allow one single human male sperm to
enter, and then in a microsecond it will undergo a chemical reaction and
become a solid wall blocking all others. This heralds the very instant
of conception. Needless to say, if a non-human sperm tries to enter this
hair-trigger mechanism will go off. When Ellen White implies that humans
and animals can mix, she is actually undercutting the glory of this
mechanism and the Creator who has anticipated all things.
Stephen Korsman
2006-05-29 18:21:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Stephen Korsman
Hi
"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that
her
Post by Stephen Korsman
writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and
authoritative,
Post by Stephen Korsman
especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not believe that the
quality
Post by Stephen Korsman
or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is different
from
Post by Stephen Korsman
that of Scripture." - http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the degree
to
Post by Stephen Korsman
which the Bible is inspired???
Yes. God isn't partial. When God speaks through the Holy Spirit , he
inspires all equally.
You have a problem with that concept?.
Not if she truly was inspired at the same level as the Bible.

Do you believe she was?

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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•R L Measures
2006-05-29 10:52:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Korsman
Hi
"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that her
writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and authoritative,
especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not believe that the quality
or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is different from
that of Scripture." - http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the degree to
which the Bible is inspired???
• That's what is claimed, Stephen. However, some of Ellen White's
revelations were apparently based on personal observation. For example,
she preached that masturbation causes near-sightedness, and she was
moderately myopic.
Teresita
2006-06-16 02:42:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by •R L Measures
• That's what is claimed, Stephen. However, some of Ellen White's
revelations were apparently based on personal observation. For example,
she preached that masturbation causes near-sightedness, and she was
moderately myopic.
It also leads to compulsive plagiarism.

--
Encyclopedia Teresita

http://home.comcast.net/~rubyredinger
•R L Measures
2006-06-16 11:45:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Teresita
Post by •R L Measures
• That's what is claimed, Stephen. However, some of Ellen White's
revelations were apparently based on personal observation. For example,
she preached that masturbation causes near-sightedness, and she was
moderately myopic.
It also leads to compulsive plagiarism.
• Since virtually all humans automanipulate, anyone could claim it leads
to any damn thing.
Whazit Tooyah
2006-05-29 18:51:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Korsman
Hi
"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that her
writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and
authoritative,
especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not believe that the quality
or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is different from
that of Scripture." - http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the degree to
which the Bible is inspired???
God bless,
Stephen
Adventists may say it but they don't practice it. Of all the weird and
wacky things she wrote they only follow a few of her teachings. That being
the Sabbath, soul sleep and some dietary laws and not much else. Some still
believe in the investigative judgment, but those who actually study
scripture (other than pastors whose paycheck depends on conformity) are
rapidly dropping that doctrine. Those who strictly adhere to Mrs. White's
teachings are viewed as cultic whacko like the Branch Davidian Seventh Day
Adventist Church.

Unfortunately the at last SDA church I went to a few weeks ago virtually
nobody brought a Bible, but a few used the pew Bibles. Makes me wonder, if
one isn't going to open and read His book how can one say that it is a
Sabbath unto the Lord..

WT
Post by Stephen Korsman
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/
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Stephen Korsman
2006-05-30 15:22:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
Hi
"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that her
writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and authoritative,
especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not believe that the quality
or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is different from
that of Scripture." - http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the degree to
which the Bible is inspired???
God bless,
Stephen
Adventists may say it but they don't practice it. Of all the weird and
wacky things she wrote they only follow a few of her teachings.
That is certainly the trend. On the other hand, the pro-White group is one
of the more vocal, especially here in South Africa. It's hard to imagine
the Adventist church removing her from her position any time soon.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
That being
the Sabbath, soul sleep and some dietary laws and not much else. Some still
believe in the investigative judgment, but those who actually study
scripture (other than pastors whose paycheck depends on conformity) are
rapidly dropping that doctrine.
Here the vegetarianism aspect is quite strong. The IJ - from what I've
seen, it's still going strong, and defended from high up. On the level of
the individual Adventist, perhaps things are different.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Those who strictly adhere to Mrs. White's
teachings are viewed as cultic whacko like the Branch Davidian Seventh Day
Adventist Church.
Even within Adventism? I find that hard to believe ... she's still quite
prominently featured in the Adventist Review, from my reading of it. That's
a fairly mainstream Adventist mouthpiece.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Unfortunately the at last SDA church I went to a few weeks ago virtually
nobody brought a Bible, but a few used the pew Bibles. Makes me wonder, if
one isn't going to open and read His book how can one say that it is a
Sabbath unto the Lord..
At the SDA church I have attended services at, they have what can only be
described as a liturgical veneration of the Bible. The pastor enters, takes
the Bible, raises it up, and the congregation kneels in respect. He reads a
passage, and they sit again, and the service begins.

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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Whazit Tooyah
2006-05-31 02:17:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
Hi
"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that
her
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and authoritative,
especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not believe that the quality
or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is different
from
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
that of Scripture." - http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the degree
to
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
which the Bible is inspired???
God bless,
Stephen
Adventists may say it but they don't practice it. Of all the weird and
wacky things she wrote they only follow a few of her teachings.
That is certainly the trend. On the other hand, the pro-White group is one
of the more vocal, especially here in South Africa. It's hard to imagine
the Adventist church removing her from her position any time soon.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
That being
the Sabbath, soul sleep and some dietary laws and not much else. Some
still
Post by Whazit Tooyah
believe in the investigative judgment, but those who actually study
scripture (other than pastors whose paycheck depends on conformity) are
rapidly dropping that doctrine.
Here the vegetarianism aspect is quite strong. The IJ - from what I've
seen, it's still going strong, and defended from high up. On the level of
the individual Adventist, perhaps things are different.
True here too, you can't find meat at an Adventist potluck
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Those who strictly adhere to Mrs. White's
teachings are viewed as cultic whacko like the Branch Davidian Seventh Day
Adventist Church.
Even within Adventism? I find that hard to believe ... she's still quite
prominently featured in the Adventist Review, from my reading of it.
That's
a fairly mainstream Adventist mouthpiece.
The key phrase is "strictly adhere." Many give passing acknowledgment to
what she taught, but only the whacked out cultists strictly adhere to her
writings.. Example: There are four mainstream SDA churches in this county,
but a coworkers ex-wife travels north into Canada every Saturday because
the local churches are too liberal and don't adhere to true Adventism.
(Just an aside: I wonder if she ever considered that by traveling to a
different country on the Sabbath she was causing Canadian and U.S. customs
people to have to work and thereby violating the Sabbath commandment.)
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Unfortunately the at last SDA church I went to a few weeks ago virtually
nobody brought a Bible, but a few used the pew Bibles. Makes me wonder,
if
Post by Whazit Tooyah
one isn't going to open and read His book how can one say that it is a
Sabbath unto the Lord..
At the SDA church I have attended services at, they have what can only be
described as a liturgical veneration of the Bible. The pastor enters, takes
the Bible, raises it up, and the congregation kneels in respect. He reads a
passage, and they sit again, and the service begins.
In the churches I prefer to attend, the Bible is central. There is usually
30 minutes of musical worship, offerings, announcements, praises and
blessings and then a thirty to fifty minute sermon, usually progressing week
to week through a book of the Bible. Line upon line, precept upon precept
is how they like to express it. In one church, we took over a year of
Sunday mornings to study through Genesis. After morning worship service we
would separate into different study classes; one of them was led by the
pastor and we would study some aspect or discuss different things about that
mornings passage. It was wonderful how much one could learn about God's
word. Often someone in the class would bring up a point that even the
pastor had not seen before. To me, the class discussion led by a pastor,
was probably as close to the early New Testament church experience as I'll
ever see.

It is strange to me that Adventists so denigrate Catholics when their are so
many similarities. Everything from church organization (parish-local
church, to Rome-General Conference) to extra biblical authority (Pope- EGW).
Being outside of both groups to me the similarities are striking.

WT
Post by Stephen Korsman
God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/
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Stephen Korsman
2006-05-31 15:49:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
Hi
"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that
her
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and authoritative,
especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not believe that the quality
or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is different
from
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
that of Scripture." - http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the degree
to
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
which the Bible is inspired???
God bless,
Stephen
Adventists may say it but they don't practice it. Of all the weird and
wacky things she wrote they only follow a few of her teachings.
That is certainly the trend. On the other hand, the pro-White group is one
of the more vocal, especially here in South Africa. It's hard to imagine
the Adventist church removing her from her position any time soon.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
That being
the Sabbath, soul sleep and some dietary laws and not much else. Some
still
Post by Whazit Tooyah
believe in the investigative judgment, but those who actually study
scripture (other than pastors whose paycheck depends on conformity) are
rapidly dropping that doctrine.
Here the vegetarianism aspect is quite strong. The IJ - from what I've
seen, it's still going strong, and defended from high up. On the level of
the individual Adventist, perhaps things are different.
True here too, you can't find meat at an Adventist potluck
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Those who strictly adhere to Mrs. White's
teachings are viewed as cultic whacko like the Branch Davidian Seventh Day
Adventist Church.
Even within Adventism? I find that hard to believe ... she's still quite
prominently featured in the Adventist Review, from my reading of it.
That's
a fairly mainstream Adventist mouthpiece.
The key phrase is "strictly adhere." Many give passing acknowledgment to
what she taught, but only the whacked out cultists strictly adhere to her
writings.. Example: There are four mainstream SDA churches in this county,
but a coworkers ex-wife travels north into Canada every Saturday because
the local churches are too liberal and don't adhere to true Adventism.
(Just an aside: I wonder if she ever considered that by traveling to a
different country on the Sabbath she was causing Canadian and U.S. customs
people to have to work and thereby violating the Sabbath commandment.)
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Unfortunately the at last SDA church I went to a few weeks ago virtually
nobody brought a Bible, but a few used the pew Bibles. Makes me wonder,
if
Post by Whazit Tooyah
one isn't going to open and read His book how can one say that it is a
Sabbath unto the Lord..
At the SDA church I have attended services at, they have what can only be
described as a liturgical veneration of the Bible. The pastor enters, takes
the Bible, raises it up, and the congregation kneels in respect. He
reads
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
a
passage, and they sit again, and the service begins.
In the churches I prefer to attend, the Bible is central. There is usually
30 minutes of musical worship, offerings, announcements, praises and
blessings and then a thirty to fifty minute sermon, usually progressing week
to week through a book of the Bible. Line upon line, precept upon precept
is how they like to express it. In one church, we took over a year of
Sunday mornings to study through Genesis. After morning worship service we
would separate into different study classes; one of them was led by the
pastor and we would study some aspect or discuss different things about that
mornings passage. It was wonderful how much one could learn about God's
word. Often someone in the class would bring up a point that even the
pastor had not seen before. To me, the class discussion led by a pastor,
was probably as close to the early New Testament church experience as I'll
ever see.
It is strange to me that Adventists so denigrate Catholics when their are so
many similarities. Everything from church organization (parish-local
church, to Rome-General Conference) to extra biblical authority (Pope- EGW).
Being outside of both groups to me the similarities are striking.
In some ways, yes. It's quite surprising. One wonders if it was the
original Jesuit influence ;-)

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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JohnSDA
2006-06-08 15:27:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Korsman
Hi
"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that her
writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and
authoritative,
especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not believe that the quality
or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is different from
that of Scripture." - http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the degree to
which the Bible is inspired???
God bless,
Stephen
You forgot to mention this:
2)We do not believe that the writings of Ellen White are an addition to the
canon of Sacred Scripture.
Post by Stephen Korsman
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/
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Stephen Korsman
2006-06-08 18:03:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnSDA
Post by Stephen Korsman
Hi
"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that her
writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and authoritative,
especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not believe that the quality
or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is different from
that of Scripture." - http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the degree to
which the Bible is inspired???
God bless,
Stephen
2)We do not believe that the writings of Ellen White are an addition to the
canon of Sacred Scripture.
Perhaps not an addition ... but the Ellen White Estate has on their website
a statement that says her writings were inspired in the same way as the
Bible was.

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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add an s before .co.za
JohnSDA
2006-06-08 23:25:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by JohnSDA
Post by Stephen Korsman
Hi
"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that
her
Post by JohnSDA
Post by Stephen Korsman
writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and authoritative,
especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not believe that the quality
or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is different
from
Post by JohnSDA
Post by Stephen Korsman
that of Scripture." - http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the degree
to
Post by JohnSDA
Post by Stephen Korsman
which the Bible is inspired???
God bless,
Stephen
2)We do not believe that the writings of Ellen White are an addition to
the
Post by JohnSDA
canon of Sacred Scripture.
Perhaps not an addition ... but the Ellen White Estate has on their website
a statement that says her writings were inspired in the same way as the
Bible was.
God bless,
Stephen
Do you understand what the gift of Prophesy is Stephen? There are many
Prophets
who spoke and wrote but never had their words put into scripture. OT or NT.
We believe that all Spiritual gifts are active. Prophesy of course may be
more rare.
But it is a spritual gift. And God uses individuals in different ways to
lead His people.
I believe there were many early Christians after the 1st century that may
have been inspired. They were led by God to denounce and seperate true
doctrine from false.
Clearly the false doctrine of Gnosticism was written about and denounced.
Were the writtings of the early Church fathers included in scripture?
No, but God used those men to direct the early Church.
Those who gathered the Canon were obviously inspired IMO.
God directed them.

EGW, a former Methodist, was part of a multi denominational movement in the
1800's
that believed in the soon coming return of Jesus Christ. When it didn't
happen,
there was a tremendous disapointment. Don't you think that God would
want to comfort and re-assure this world wide movement?
These Christians, Baptists, Methodists, 7th Day Baptists, Lutherens, and
others, and yes even some Catholics, who were part of a big 19th century
revival,
had readied themselves for the return of Christ. Yes they misinterpreted the
timing
and made mistakes, But they were zealous for God.
Does God abandon people like this? Scoff at them? Laugh at them?
In my opinion He saw their zeal and their love for Christ and wanted to
re-assure them.
There actually were some others btw who never went on to be SDA's who also
said
they had re-assuring visions. In the end, God brought together these
multi-denominational
followers, and from bitterness and disapointment came happiness and joy that
God
had brought them together, from that a renewed zeal in studying the
scriptures
and dedication to holy living. If God chose someone to give clear direction
to
these believers who can argue with Him? And any Prophet must pass the
scriptural
test. Are they infallible? NO! Many of the biblical heros were not either.
But there is a biblical litmus.

God uses people for His purposes. It is ridiculous to think that God is not
active in
todays world and would not use people in differnt ways to lead and guide His
followers.
Post by Stephen Korsman
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/
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Stephen Korsman
2006-06-09 14:18:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnSDA
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by JohnSDA
Post by Stephen Korsman
Hi
"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that
her
Post by JohnSDA
Post by Stephen Korsman
writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and authoritative,
especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not believe that the quality
or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is different
from
Post by JohnSDA
Post by Stephen Korsman
that of Scripture." - http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the degree
to
Post by JohnSDA
Post by Stephen Korsman
which the Bible is inspired???
God bless,
Stephen
2)We do not believe that the writings of Ellen White are an addition to
the
Post by JohnSDA
canon of Sacred Scripture.
Perhaps not an addition ... but the Ellen White Estate has on their website
a statement that says her writings were inspired in the same way as the
Bible was.
God bless,
Stephen
Do you understand what the gift of Prophesy is Stephen? There are many
Prophets
who spoke and wrote but never had their words put into scripture. OT or NT.
We believe that all Spiritual gifts are active. Prophesy of course may be
more rare.
But it is a spritual gift. And God uses individuals in different ways to
lead His people.
I believe there were many early Christians after the 1st century that may
have been inspired. They were led by God to denounce and seperate true
doctrine from false.
Not in the same way the Bible is inspired.
Post by JohnSDA
Clearly the false doctrine of Gnosticism was written about and denounced.
Were the writtings of the early Church fathers included in scripture?
No, because they were not inspired in the same way.
Post by JohnSDA
No, but God used those men to direct the early Church.
Those who gathered the Canon were obviously inspired IMO.
God directed them.
If God directed them, instead of the alleged Sabbath keepers, what does that
tell us? The people who gathered the Canon and made the decisions at each
step were Catholic. One only needs to read what they wrote, and what
history says about them, to know that. I find it hard to believe that God
would use an apostate church to provide knowledge of which books form part
of the written Word of God and which do not.
Post by JohnSDA
EGW, a former Methodist, was part of a multi denominational movement in the
1800's
that believed in the soon coming return of Jesus Christ. When it didn't
happen,
there was a tremendous disapointment. Don't you think that God would
want to comfort and re-assure this world wide movement?
These Christians, Baptists, Methodists, 7th Day Baptists, Lutherens, and
others, and yes even some Catholics, who were part of a big 19th century
revival,
had readied themselves for the return of Christ. Yes they misinterpreted the
timing
and made mistakes, But they were zealous for God.
Does God abandon people like this? Scoff at them? Laugh at them?
In my opinion He saw their zeal and their love for Christ and wanted to
re-assure them.
There actually were some others btw who never went on to be SDA's who also
said
they had re-assuring visions.
Not all visions are from God. Some result from medical conditions. Ellen
White was hit on her head, then began seeing things.
Post by JohnSDA
In the end, God brought together these
multi-denominational
followers, and from bitterness and disapointment came happiness and joy that
God
had brought them together, from that a renewed zeal in studying the
scriptures
and dedication to holy living. If God chose someone to give clear direction
to
these believers who can argue with Him?
But we have no evidence that God chose Ellen White for that role. Her
writings, her visions, even her plagiarism count against that theory.
Post by JohnSDA
And any Prophet must pass the
scriptural
test. Are they infallible? NO! Many of the biblical heros were not either.
But there is a biblical litmus.
God uses people for His purposes. It is ridiculous to think that God is not
active in
todays world and would not use people in differnt ways to lead and guide His
followers.
Nobody claims that.

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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JohnSDA
2006-06-08 23:37:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by JohnSDA
Post by Stephen Korsman
Hi
"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that
her
Post by JohnSDA
Post by Stephen Korsman
writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and authoritative,
especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not believe that the quality
or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is different
from
Post by JohnSDA
Post by Stephen Korsman
that of Scripture." - http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the degree
to
Post by JohnSDA
Post by Stephen Korsman
which the Bible is inspired???
God bless,
Stephen
2)We do not believe that the writings of Ellen White are an addition to
the
Post by JohnSDA
canon of Sacred Scripture.
Perhaps not an addition ... but the Ellen White Estate has on their website
a statement that says her writings were inspired in the same way as the
Bible was.
God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/
IC | XC
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add an s before .co.za
http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-17.htm
The Bible specifies several guidelines by which we can distinguish the
genuine prophetic gift from the spurious.

1. Does the message agree with the Bible? "To the law and to the testimony!
If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light
in them" (Isa. 8:20). This text implies that messages of any prophet ought
to be in harmony with God's law and testimony throughout the Bible. A later
prophet must not contradict earlier prophets. The Holy Spirit never
contradicts His previously given testimony, for God "does not change like
shifting shadows" (James 1:17, NIV).

2. Do the predictions come true? "'How can we know when a message has not
been spoken by the Lord?' If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the
Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not
spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him"
(Deut. 18:21, 22, NIV; cf. Jer. 28:9). Though predictions may comprise a
comparatively small part of the prophetic message, their accuracy must be
demonstrated.

3. Is Christ's incarnation recognized? "By this you know the Spirit of God:
Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of
God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in
the flesh is not of God" (1 John 4:2, 3). This test demands more than a
simple acknowledgement that Jesus Christ lived on earth. The true prophet
must confess the Biblical teaching on Christ's incarnation—must believe in
His deity and pre-existence, His virgin birth, true humanity, sinless life,
atoning sacrifice, resurrection, ascension, intercessory ministry, and
second advent.

4. Does the prophet bear good or bad "fruit"? Prophecy comes through the

224

Holy Spirit's inspiring "holy men of God" (2 Peter 1:21). We can discern
false prophets by their fruits. "'A good tree cannot bear bad fruit'" Jesus
said, "'nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear
good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits
you will know them'" (Matt. 7:16, 18-20).

This counsel is crucial in evaluating a prophet's claim. It speaks first of
the prophet's life. It does not mean that the prophet must be absolutely
perfect—Scripture says that Elijah was a man of "like passions as we are"
(James 5:17, KJV). But the prophet's life should be characterized by the
fruit of the Spirit, not by works of the flesh (see Gal. 5:19-23).

Second, this principle pertains to the influence of the prophet on others.
What results accrue in the lives of those who accept the messages? Do their
messages equip God's people for missions and unify them in their faith (Eph.
4:12-16)?

Any person claiming to have the prophetic gift should be subjected to these
Biblical tests. If he or she measures up to these criteria we can have
confidence that indeed the Holy Spirit has given that individual the gift of
prophecy.

The Spirit of Prophecy in the Seventh-day Adventist Church
The gift of prophecy was active in the ministry of Ellen G. White, one of
the founders of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. She has given inspired
instruction for God's people living during the time of the end. The world of
the early nineteenth century, when Ellen White began to deliver God's
messages, was a man's world. Her prophetic call put her under critical
scrutiny. Passing the Biblical tests, she went on to minister through her
spiritual gift for 70 years. From 1844, when she was 17, until 1915—the year
of her death—she had more than 2, 000 visions. During that time she lived
and worked in America, Europe, and Australia, counseling, establishing new
work, preaching, and writing.

Ellen White never assumed the title of prophetess, but she did not object
when others called her by that title. She explained, "Early in my youth I
was asked several times, Are you a prophet? I have ever responded, I am the
Lord's messenger. I know that many have called me a prophet, but I have made
no claim to this title. . . . Why have I not claimed to be a
prophet?—Because in these days many who boldly claim that they are prophets
are a reproach to the cause of Christ; and because my work includes much
more than the word 'prophet' signifies. . . . To claim to be a prophetess is
something that I have never done. If others call me by that name, I have no
controversy with them. But my work has covered so many lines that I can not
call myself other than a messenger."13
Stephen Korsman
2006-06-09 14:22:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnSDA
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by JohnSDA
Post by Stephen Korsman
Hi
"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that
her
Post by JohnSDA
Post by Stephen Korsman
writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and authoritative,
especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not believe that the quality
or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is different
from
Post by JohnSDA
Post by Stephen Korsman
that of Scripture." - http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the degree
to
Post by JohnSDA
Post by Stephen Korsman
which the Bible is inspired???
God bless,
Stephen
2)We do not believe that the writings of Ellen White are an addition to
the
Post by JohnSDA
canon of Sacred Scripture.
Perhaps not an addition ... but the Ellen White Estate has on their website
a statement that says her writings were inspired in the same way as the
Bible was.
God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/
IC | XC
---------
NI | KA
add an s before .co.za
http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-17.htm
The Bible specifies several guidelines by which we can distinguish the
genuine prophetic gift from the spurious.
1. Does the message agree with the Bible? "To the law and to the testimony!
If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light
in them" (Isa. 8:20). This text implies that messages of any prophet ought
to be in harmony with God's law and testimony throughout the Bible. A later
prophet must not contradict earlier prophets. The Holy Spirit never
contradicts His previously given testimony, for God "does not change like
shifting shadows" (James 1:17, NIV).
On that, she fails the test.
Post by JohnSDA
2. Do the predictions come true? "'How can we know when a message has not
been spoken by the Lord?' If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the
Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not
spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him"
(Deut. 18:21, 22, NIV; cf. Jer. 28:9). Though predictions may comprise a
comparatively small part of the prophetic message, their accuracy must be
demonstrated.
On that, she fails the test, and therefore Christians do not need to pay
attention to her.
Post by JohnSDA
Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of
God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in
the flesh is not of God" (1 John 4:2, 3). This test demands more than a
simple acknowledgement that Jesus Christ lived on earth. The true prophet
must confess the Biblical teaching on Christ's incarnation-must believe in
His deity and pre-existence, His virgin birth, true humanity, sinless life,
atoning sacrifice, resurrection, ascension, intercessory ministry, and
second advent.
While Ellen White didn't speak out when her contemporaries denied the
divinity of Christ and the Trinity, she herself doesn't clearly do so.
However, it says a lot about the foundation of the early Adventist faith.
What sort of remnant church loses so much truth, and takes decades to
recover it?
Post by JohnSDA
4. Does the prophet bear good or bad "fruit"? Prophecy comes through the
Her writings bear good fruit, in that they can be inspiring in a spiritual
sense. They also bear plenty of bad fruit.

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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add an s before .co.za
Post by JohnSDA
224
Holy Spirit's inspiring "holy men of God" (2 Peter 1:21). We can discern
false prophets by their fruits. "'A good tree cannot bear bad fruit'" Jesus
said, "'nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear
good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits
you will know them'" (Matt. 7:16, 18-20).
This counsel is crucial in evaluating a prophet's claim. It speaks first of
the prophet's life. It does not mean that the prophet must be absolutely
perfect-Scripture says that Elijah was a man of "like passions as we are"
(James 5:17, KJV). But the prophet's life should be characterized by the
fruit of the Spirit, not by works of the flesh (see Gal. 5:19-23).
Second, this principle pertains to the influence of the prophet on others.
What results accrue in the lives of those who accept the messages? Do their
messages equip God's people for missions and unify them in their faith (Eph.
4:12-16)?
Any person claiming to have the prophetic gift should be subjected to these
Biblical tests. If he or she measures up to these criteria we can have
confidence that indeed the Holy Spirit has given that individual the gift of
prophecy.
The Spirit of Prophecy in the Seventh-day Adventist Church
The gift of prophecy was active in the ministry of Ellen G. White, one of
the founders of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. She has given inspired
instruction for God's people living during the time of the end. The world of
the early nineteenth century, when Ellen White began to deliver God's
messages, was a man's world. Her prophetic call put her under critical
scrutiny. Passing the Biblical tests, she went on to minister through her
spiritual gift for 70 years. From 1844, when she was 17, until 1915-the
year
Post by JohnSDA
of her death-she had more than 2, 000 visions. During that time she lived
and worked in America, Europe, and Australia, counseling, establishing new
work, preaching, and writing.
Ellen White never assumed the title of prophetess, but she did not object
when others called her by that title. She explained, "Early in my youth I
was asked several times, Are you a prophet? I have ever responded, I am the
Lord's messenger. I know that many have called me a prophet, but I have made
no claim to this title. . . . Why have I not claimed to be a
prophet?-Because in these days many who boldly claim that they are
prophets
Post by JohnSDA
are a reproach to the cause of Christ; and because my work includes much
more than the word 'prophet' signifies. . . . To claim to be a prophetess is
something that I have never done. If others call me by that name, I have no
controversy with them. But my work has covered so many lines that I can not
call myself other than a messenger."13
JohnSDA
2006-06-08 23:40:32 UTC
Permalink
Some good information on this topic:
http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/Biblebasis.html
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by JohnSDA
Post by Stephen Korsman
Hi
"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that
her
Post by JohnSDA
Post by Stephen Korsman
writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and authoritative,
especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not believe that the quality
or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is different
from
Post by JohnSDA
Post by Stephen Korsman
that of Scripture." - http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the degree
to
Post by JohnSDA
Post by Stephen Korsman
which the Bible is inspired???
God bless,
Stephen
2)We do not believe that the writings of Ellen White are an addition to
the
Post by JohnSDA
canon of Sacred Scripture.
Perhaps not an addition ... but the Ellen White Estate has on their website
a statement that says her writings were inspired in the same way as the
Bible was.
God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/
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add an s before .co.za
Stephen Korsman
2006-06-09 18:12:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by JohnSDA
http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/Biblebasis.html
I have no problem with the concept of a prophet ... it's Ellen White's piano
tuners and masturbation causes tuberculosis that makes her inspiration and
status as a prophet absurd.

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

IC | XC
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NI | KA

add an s before .co.za
Post by JohnSDA
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by JohnSDA
Post by Stephen Korsman
Hi
"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that
her
Post by JohnSDA
Post by Stephen Korsman
writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and authoritative,
especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not believe that the quality
or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is different
from
Post by JohnSDA
Post by Stephen Korsman
that of Scripture." - http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the degree
to
Post by JohnSDA
Post by Stephen Korsman
which the Bible is inspired???
God bless,
Stephen
2)We do not believe that the writings of Ellen White are an addition to
the
Post by JohnSDA
canon of Sacred Scripture.
Perhaps not an addition ... but the Ellen White Estate has on their website
a statement that says her writings were inspired in the same way as the
Bible was.
God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/
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---------
NI | KA
add an s before .co.za
Teresita
2006-06-20 02:00:51 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 9 Jun 2006 20:12:34 +0200, "Stephen Korsman"
Post by Stephen Korsman
I have no problem with the concept of a prophet ... it's Ellen White's piano
tuners and masturbation causes tuberculosis that makes her inspiration and
status as a prophet absurd.
Not to mention the tall folks walking around on Jupiter.

--
Encyclopedia Teresita

http://home.comcast.net/~rubyredinger
•R L Measures
2006-06-20 02:13:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Teresita
On Fri, 9 Jun 2006 20:12:34 +0200, "Stephen Korsman"
Post by Stephen Korsman
I have no problem with the concept of a prophet ... it's Ellen White's piano
tuners and masturbation causes tuberculosis that makes her inspiration and
status as a prophet absurd.
Not to mention the tall folks walking around on Jupiter.
• And pygmies resulting from humans humping chimps -- or maybe chimps
humping humans?
•R L Measures
2006-06-08 23:40:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by JohnSDA
Post by Stephen Korsman
Hi
"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that
her
Post by JohnSDA
Post by Stephen Korsman
writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and authoritative,
especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not believe that the quality
or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is different
from
Post by JohnSDA
Post by Stephen Korsman
that of Scripture." - http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the degree
to
Post by JohnSDA
Post by Stephen Korsman
which the Bible is inspired???
God bless,
Stephen
2)We do not believe that the writings of Ellen White are an addition to
the
Post by JohnSDA
canon of Sacred Scripture.
Perhaps not an addition ... but the Ellen White Estate has on their website
a statement that says her writings were inspired in the same way as the
Bible was.
• Ellen was right anbout masturbation causing near sightedness because
she was myopic.
Teresita
2006-06-16 02:41:11 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 29 May 2006 07:02:15 +0200, "Stephen Korsman"
Post by Stephen Korsman
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the degree to
which the Bible is inspired???
Gosh, I hope not, being a cafe mocha-colored American, that would mean
I really am an amalgamation of humans and animals.


--
Encyclopedia Teresita

http://home.comcast.net/~rubyredinger
•R L Measures
2006-06-16 11:47:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Teresita
On Mon, 29 May 2006 07:02:15 +0200, "Stephen Korsman"
Post by Stephen Korsman
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the degree to
which the Bible is inspired???
Gosh, I hope not, being a cafe mocha-colored American, that would mean
I really am an amalgamation of humans and animals.
• The term "I'll be a monkey's uncle" gives pause for thought, T.
KA6UUP
2006-07-02 03:13:29 UTC
Permalink
http://www.ellen-white.com/
Post by Teresita
On Mon, 29 May 2006 07:02:15 +0200, "Stephen Korsman"
Post by Stephen Korsman
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the degree to
which the Bible is inspired???
Gosh, I hope not, being a cafe mocha-colored American, that would mean
I really am an amalgamation of humans and animals.
• The term "I'll be a monkey's uncle" gives pause for thought, T.
Stephen Korsman
2006-07-02 11:06:39 UTC
Permalink
http://www.ellenwhite.org/
Post by KA6UUP
http://www.ellen-white.com/
Post by •R L Measures
Post by Teresita
On Mon, 29 May 2006 07:02:15 +0200, "Stephen Korsman"
Post by Stephen Korsman
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the degree to
which the Bible is inspired???
Gosh, I hope not, being a cafe mocha-colored American, that would mean
I really am an amalgamation of humans and animals.
• The term "I'll be a monkey's uncle" gives pause for thought, T.
KA6UUP
2006-07-02 03:07:20 UTC
Permalink
http://www.ellen-white.com/
Post by Stephen Korsman
Hi
"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that her
writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and authoritative,
especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not believe that the quality
or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is different from
that of Scripture." - http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the degree to
which the Bible is inspired???
God bless,
Stephen
Stephen Korsman
2006-07-02 11:06:34 UTC
Permalink
http://www.ellenwhite.org/
Post by KA6UUP
http://www.ellen-white.com/
Post by Stephen Korsman
Hi
"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that her
writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and authoritative,
especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not believe that the quality
or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is different from
that of Scripture." - http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html
The degree to which Ellen White was inspired is the same as the degree to
which the Bible is inspired???
God bless,
Stephen
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