Post by Stephen KorsmanThanks for once again demonstrating you can run your mouth claim
alot of
Post by Stephen Korsmanthings not stated by your church , while still refusing to back it
up
Post by Stephen Korsmanwith proof.
Stephen does diverge from Vatican teachings. The most egregious
being his
Post by Stephen Korsmandenigration of the Decalogue, which position the Vatican most
certainly
Post by Stephen Korsmandoes
not hold.
You've quoted evidence to the contrary, Andrew. Misrepresenting
Catholic
Post by Stephen Korsmanteaching with selective quoting isn't going to impress anyone. It
just
Post by Stephen Korsmanshows us that you have nothing on us, and you avoid defending your own
claims from the Bible. You think you know Catholic teaching better
than
Post by Stephen KorsmanCatholics. I suggest you search the web for explanations of this
matter.
OK. Here's an official source saying JESUS DID NOT ABOLISH THE
LAW.(context supplied)
In the context of Catholic teaching, which says the law was abrogated
(Trent, etc) - isn't this a contradiction?
If we understand what is meant - allowing Catholic documents to explain
themselves - there is only one answer. The moral principles of the law are
not abolished - they are part of the New Law. As a legal code, the Old
Covenant law is not applicable to Christians. This I've already shown to be
the Catholic position.
You're still trying to tell me that the Catholic position (Trent, et al) is
not the Catholic position.
*************************************************************
"The other Commandments of the Decalogue are precepts of the natural law,
obligatory at all times and unalterable. Hence, after the abrogation of the
Law of Moses, all the Commandments contained in the two tables are observed
by Christians, not indeed because their observance is commanded by Moses,
but because they are in conformity with nature which dictates obedience to
them." - The Catechism of the Council of Trent -
http://www.cin.org/users/James/ebooks/master/trent/tcomm03.htm
Obviously Trent included the Decalogue in the law of Moses, which was
abrogated. The law written on our hearts, however, includes them. The
commandments, Trent says, are kept by Christians in spite of being part of
the Mosaic Law because they are ALSO part of natural law.
CCC:
1952 There are different expressions of the moral law, all of them
interrelated: eternal law - the source, in God, of all law; natural law;
revealed law, comprising the Old Law and the New Law, or Law of the Gospel;
finally, civil and ecclesiastical laws.
1962 The Old Law is the first stage of revealed Law. Its moral prescriptions
are summed up in the Ten Commandments. The precepts of the Decalogue lay the
foundations for the vocation of man fashioned in the image of God; they
prohibit what is contrary to the love of God and neighbor and prescribe what
is essential to it. The Decalogue is a light offered to the conscience of
every man to make God's call and ways known to him and to protect him
against evil: God wrote on the tables of the Law what men did not read in
their hearts.[13]
1967 The Law of the Gospel "fulfills," refines, surpasses, and leads the Old
Law to its perfection.[21] In the Beatitudes, the New Law fulfills the
divine promises by elevating and orienting them toward the "kingdom of
heaven." It is addressed to those open to accepting this new hope with
faith - the poor, the humble, the afflicted, the pure of heart, those
persecuted on account of Christ and so marks out the surprising ways of the
Kingdom.
580 The perfect fulfilment of the Law could be the work of none but the
divine legislator, born subject to the Law in the person of the Son.[337] In
Jesus, the Law no longer appears engraved on tables of stone but "upon the
heart" of the Servant who becomes "a covenant to the people", because he
will "faithfully bring forth justice".[338] Jesus fulfils the Law to the
point of taking upon himself "the curse of the Law" incurred by those who do
not "abide by the things written in the book of the Law, and do them", for
his death took place to redeem them "from the transgressions under the first
covenant".[339]
Other:
"But it's not just the ceremonial laws that were set aside. 2 Cor 3:7-14
says it was the laws written on stone, the Ten Commandments, that were also
part of the Old Covenant. Romans 7:7-8 specifically says that the Ninth and
Tenth Commandments were the very laws that condemned Paul in sin, from which
he needed to be released. Gal 3:10-12 says that if you put yourself under
the law of the Old Covenant, they you are required to obey all its provision
without fault, otherwise the Law will condemn you. It is the whole Law, as
an active covenant, that is set aside, because as a legal entity the Law's
first action was to condemn men in sin. The Catechism says as much (Para
1963, 780, 580). The legal status of the Law had to be removed so that it
would not condemn us in sin, but its ethical provisions, that is, the "good
and holy" laws is contained, were then transferred to the New Covenant and
made even better than they were before." -
http://www.catholicintl.com/epologetics/dialogs/pastoral/ccc-heresy3.htm
"The OT Scriptures are "profitable" because they continue to give us ethical
principles to live by. For example, in 1 Cor 9:9 Paul quotes from Deut 25:4:
"Thou shalt not muzzle the ox." Even though Paul in other places says that
the Old Covenant is "a ministry of death engraved on stone tablets" (2 Cor
3:7), he can still extract ethical principles from the Old Covenant, and he
can do so because those ethical principles are based on God's eternal laws.
By the same token, Paul assures us that the Old Covenant, as a LEGAL entity
that enforce those laws, has been abrogated. If it was still in force, then
it would be a "ministry of death," because it is the Old Covenant law which
condemned people in sin. The problem in Paul's day was that the Jews wanted
to keep the Old Covenant as their legal covenant. That is why Paul warned
them that, if they did, they would then have to come under the legal
condemnation of the Old Covenant (Gal 3:10; 5:1-4). There are two sides to
this coin: (1) the Old Covenant still gives us ethical principles, and (2)
the Old Covenant, from a legal perspective, has been abrogated. The teaching
and enforcing of its ethical principles are carried out only in the New
Covenant today." - http://www.catholicintl.com/qa/answer_critics.htm
"As Christains we are not bound to the Mosaic Law per se but we are bound to
the standards of morality that the Mosaic Law revealed." -
http://www.catholicintl.com/qa/answer_critics.htm
"The Old Law includes certain precepts of natural law. All of the Ten
Commandments, for example, are either direct expressions of natural law or,
in one case (that of the Sabbath commandment), a particular application of a
natural law principle. Because the natural law is binding for all time on
all people and never changes, those natural law precepts of the Old Law are
also binding on non-Jews. This is why they get quoted in the New Testament
as obligatory for Christians and which is why we continue to quote them
today. What happens, though, is that people end up forgetting that the
reason they are binding on us is that they are part of natural law. People
hear the verses quoted and think that they are binding because the Old Law
says them. Aquinas explains: "The Old Law showed forth the precepts of the
natural law, and added certain precepts of its own. Accordingly, as to those
precepts of the natural law contained in the Old Law, all were bound to
observe the Old Law; not because they belonged to the Old Law, but because
they belonged to the natural law" (ST I-II:98:5). When you understand this
fact, it cuts through a bunch of the problems people fall prey to when
looking at the New Testament's use of the Old Law. People will mistakenly
ask, "In what way is the Old Law binding on us today?" This question is
framed wrong. It assumes that there isa way in which the Old Law is binding
on us, and there's not. The Old Law itself is binding on no one, and, unless
one is Jewish, never was." -
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0010bt.asp
"The moral law of the Old Testament is in its essentials permanent. The
Decalogue, given on Sinai, is at its core a republication of the law of
nature, written on all human hearts even prior to any positive divine
legislation. The commandments reflecting the natural law, reaffirmed in the
New Testament, are binding on Christians. But, as St. Thomas explains in the
Summa (I-II.98.5), the Mosaic Law contains additions in view of the special
vocation and situation of the Jewish people. The Decalogue itself, as given
in Exodus and Deuteronomy, contains some ceremonial prescriptions together
with the moral." -
http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=6814
St Thomas Aquinas:
"The Old Law contained some moral precepts; as is evident from Ex. 20:13,15:
"Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal." This was reasonable: because,
just as the principal intention of human law is to created friendship
between man and man; so the chief intention of the Divine law is to
establish man in friendship with God. Now since likeness is the reason of
love, according to Sirach 13:19: "Every beast loveth its like"; there cannot
possibly be any friendship of man to God, Who is supremely good, unless man
become good: wherefore it is written (Leviticus 19:2; 11:45): "You shall be
holy, for I am holy." But the goodness of man is virtue, which "makes its
possessor good" (Ethic. ii, 6). Therefore it was necessary for the Old Law
to include precepts about acts of virtue: and these are the moral precepts
of the Law." - http://www.newadvent.org/summa/209902.htm
"Accordingly the New Law had no other external works to determine, by
prescribing or forbidding, except the sacraments, and those moral precepts
which have a necessary connection with virtue, for instance, that one must
not kill, or steal, and so forth." -
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/210802.htm
"The New Law is the law of the New Testament. But the law of the New
Testament is instilled in our hearts. For the Apostle, quoting the authority
of Jeremias 31:31,33: "Behold the days shall come, saith the Lord; and I
will perfect unto the house of Israel, and unto the house of Judah, a new
testament," says, explaining what this statement is (Hebrews 8:8,10): "For
this is the testament which I will make to the house of Israel . . . by
giving [Vulg.: 'I will give'] My laws into their mind, and in their heart
will I write them." Therefore the New Law is instilled in our hearts." -
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/210601.htm
"The state of the world may change in two ways. In one way, according to a
change of law: and thus no other state will succeed this state of the New
Law. Because the state of the New Law succeeded the state of the Old Law, as
a more perfect law a less perfect one. Now no state of the present life can
be more perfect that the state of the New Law: since nothing can approach
nearer to the last end than that which is the immediate cause of our being
brought to the last end." - http://www.newadvent.org/summa/210604.htm
And a 2nd batch:
What is the Law of the Old Testament?
The Law of the Old Testament is the Law that was given to the Jewish people;
it is the first stage of revealed law and its moral prescriptions are summed
up in the Ten Commandments.
What is the law of the Gospel (the 'New Law')?
The Law of the Gospel is the completion and perfection of God's Law, natural
and revealed. It is given to us by Christ himself - especially in the Sermon
on the Mount and the Beatitudes.
- http://www.catholic.org.uk/library/catechism/lawandgrace.shtml
Christ in the Gospels laid down certain rules of life and conduct which must
be practiced by every one of His followers as the necessary condition for
attaining to everlasting life. These precepts of the Gospel practically
consist of the Decalogue, or Ten Commandments, of the Old Law, interpreted
in the sense of the New.
- http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04435a.htm
Six times Jesus contrasts the poverty of the older moral standards with the
richness of the new. He begins by re-stating the law "Thou shalt not kill,"
then adds that "Thou shalt not even wrong the neighbor by being angry at
him." And He repeats each time that the new law that He now promulgates is
more perfect than the old Law. ... The apostles might have been astounded,
because Jesus was not only improving on the Old Law, but correcting what
Moses himself had allowed.
- http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=5975
The Old Law instructed people like children. The New law instructs people
like adults. ... The Natural Law gives us the inclinations by which we are
generally morally obliged to do good and avoid evil. The Old Law presupposes
these principles and restates them as a specific preparation for the holy
people of God from which the Messiah will come. This restatement and
application is the Ten Commandments or the Decalogue. For this purpose the
Old Law had three sorts of precepts. The first were the general Moral
precepts, which this law shared with the Natural Law. These are the Ten
Commandments considered in general.
- http://home.comcast.net/~icuweb/c01605.htm
The Old Law was a necessary stage in the progressive education of Israel by
God in the ways of God. ...
- http://home.comcast.net/~icuweb/c01606.htm
The Old Law was written on tablets of stone. It was comprised of many
commandments, which could be expressed in human speech. It remedied for the
punishment of ignorance in the intellect for the Original Sin, but in itself
it did not remedy for the defect of Malice or weakness in the will. Only
Christ could do this in the New Law. This New Law of Christ is taught in the
Sermon on the Mount. In this sermon, the interior motivation for the
observance of the commandments is stressed as the foundation for the written
letter. The New Law of Christ is primarily not a written law. ... The Old
Law contained 618 precepts, 248 commands and 365 prohibitions according to
the authorities at the time of Jesus. It contained so many precepts because
it instructed people like children who need constant reminders. Those who
live under the Dispensation of the New Law have only those precepts which in
themselves are according to or against the living of charity.
- http://home.comcast.net/~icuweb/c01607.htm
Traditionally, we distinguish three parts of the Mosaic Law: the moral law,
the ceremonial law, and the juridical law. The moral law expresses what is
true to human nature and is succinctly summarized in the Decalogue (the 10
commandments).
- http://home.comcast.net/~icuweb/c03712.htm
The Old Law includes certain precepts of natural law. All of the Ten
Commandments, for example, are either direct expressions of natural law or,
in one case (that of the Sabbath commandment), a particular application of a
natural law principle. Because the natural law is binding for all time on
all people and never changes, those natural law precepts of the Old Law are
also binding on non-Jews. This is why they get quoted in the New Testament
as obligatory for Christians and which is why we continue to quote them
today. What happens, though, is that people end up forgetting that the
reason they are binding on us is that they are part of natural law. People
hear the verses quoted and think that they are binding because the Old Law
says them. Aquinas explains: "The Old Law showed forth the precepts of the
natural law, and added certain precepts of its own. Accordingly, as to those
precepts of the natural law contained in the Old Law, all were bound to
observe the Old Law; not because they belonged to the Old Law, but because
they belonged to the natural law" (ST I-II:98:5). When you understand this
fact, it cuts through a bunch of the problems people fall prey to when
looking at the New Testament's use of the Old Law. People will mistakenly
ask, "In what way is the Old Law binding on us today?" This question is
framed wrong. It assumes that there isa way in which the Old Law is binding
on us, and there's not. The Old Law itself is binding on no one, and, unless
one is Jewish, never was.
- http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0010bt.asp
A common Protestant position is that the moral precepts are binding on us
today but the ceremonial and civil precepts are not. Others (theonomists)
will hold that the judicial precepts are binding, though perhaps with minor
modifications. And a very small number even holds that some or all of the
ceremonial precepts are binding to day as well. This division of the
precepts of the Law into three classes has even led some (many in
Presbyterian circles) to speak as if there are three separate laws in the
Torah-"the moral law," "the ceremonial law," and "the civil law." This is
completely unbiblical. The Torah is one corpus of legislation, not three.
The moral/ceremonial/judicial scheme is a convenient but arbitrary way of
classifying its precepts. There are other ways in which the precepts can be
classified. For example, the common method of classification used by Jews
divides the precepts into two classes-those that are commands ("Thou shalt .
. .") and those that are prohibitions ("Thou shalt not . . ."). When one
understands that that the moral precepts are binding on us because they are
demanded by natural law, one is no longer dependent on figuring out which is
the "right" Mosaic Law classification scheme for the precepts.
- http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0010bt.asp
The Ten Commandments stand at the heart of the Mosaic covenant: obedience to
them embodies the faithful response of the people to their God. ... From the
point of view of Christians, the Decalogue and the entire torah, or Law, is
holy, good, and spiritual-and yet it is imperfect. Its perfection is found
in the New Law given to us by Jesus Christ, by the example of his life, the
content of his mission and teaching, and the ongoing teaching handed down by
his Church through the Spirit. In other words, the Old Law found in the
Hebrew scriptures is but a preparation for the New Law given in Christ. The
former disposes people for the latter and for what is then revealed for our
continued holiness and goodness as we live in Christ.
- http://www.faithfirst.com/html/catechist/lectionary/yearB/Mar19Catb.html
Christian freedom as taught by Paul, then, is first of all a freedom from
the ritual provisions of the Mosaic law, at least for the Gentiles. But it
is also a freedom from the (Mosaic) law in its entirety as the way to enter
into the full relationship with God and the full status as his people.
Behind this change is an understanding that the purpose of law is not to
give life but to reveal sin (Rom 7:7-12). Life, relationship with God, power
to live the Christian call, come through faith in Christ and through the
Spirit of God given to us. The freedom that Paul teaches is not, however,
a freedom to disobey the ethical prescriptions taught in Old and New
Testament alike, much less a freedom to set our standards and to submit to
no one. [Footnote: The "law" (nomos) can refer either to the obligations
imposed by the Old Covenant (the "Mosaic Law") or to the standard and
judgment of God. Paul states that the law of the obligations of the Old
Covenant is fulfilled and superseded in Christ and in the New Covenant. Thus
he says: "Christ is the end of the law in its connection with righteousness
to all who believe" (Rom 10:4). However, in Romans 2 and elsewhere he stands
by the law as the continuing standard and judgment of God. The ethical
prescriptions of both the Old and New Covenant are not abrogated in Christ.]
- http://www.rc.net/wcc/readings/clark14.htm
29. And first of all, by the death of our Redeemer, the New Testament took
the place of the Old Law which had been abolished; ...
30. On the Cross then the Old Law died, soon to be buried and to be a bearer
of death, [36] in order to give way to the New Testament of which Christ had
chosen the Apostles as qualified ministers; ...
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi_en.html
The moral law established by God in creation and confirmed in the Old
Testament revelation reaches fulfilment and greatness in Christ. Jesus
Christ is the way of perfection, the living and personal synthesis of
perfect freedom in total obedience to God's will. The original function of
the Decalogue is not abolished by the encounter with Christ but is led to
this fullness.
-
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2006/april/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20060427_pont-comm-biblica_en.html
Since the Law is Israelite and Jewish, it is therefore a specific and
determinate one, adopted to a particular historical people. But it has also
an exemplary value for the whole of humanity (Dt 4:6) ...
As regards the central contents of the Law (the Decalogue and that which is
in accordance with its spirit), Ga 5:18-23 affirms first of all: "If you are
led by the Spirit, you are not subject to the Law" (5:18). Having no need of
the Law, a person will spontaneously abstain from "works of the flesh"
(5:19-21) and will produce "the fruit of the Spirit" (5:22). Paul adds that
the Law is not contrary to this (5:23), because believers will fulfil all
that the Law demands, and will also avoid what the Law prohibits. According
to Rm 8:1-4, "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" has freed
believers from the powerlessness of the Mosaic Law in such a way that "the
just precepts of the Law may be fulfilled". One of the reasons for
redemption was precisely to obtain this fulfilment of the Law! ...
For James, as for the Christian community at large, the moral demands of the
Law continue to serve as a guide (2:11), but as interpreted by the Lord. The
"royal law" (2:8), that of the "kingdom" (2:5), is the precept of love of
neighbour. 161 This is "the perfect law of liberty" (1:25; 2:12-13), which
is concerned with working through a faith that is active (2:14-26). ...
-
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/pcb_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20020212_popolo-ebraico_en.html
CCC 2060 The gift of the commandments and of the Law is part of the covenant
God sealed with his own. In Exodus, the revelation of the "ten words" is
granted between the proposal of the covenant22 and its conclusion - after
the people had committed themselves to "do" all that the Lord had said, and
to "obey" it.23 The Decalogue is never handed on without first recalling the
covenant ("The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.").24
*************************************************************
From what I posted before, and here, the following should be obvious:
1. The 10 Commandments are considered by Catholics to be part of the Old Law
2. The Old Law is considered to have been replaced by the New Law -
abrogated, says Trent [the LAW was abrogated, NOT the principles found
therein]
3. The moral principles of the 10 Commandments (and the rest of the Old Law)
are contained in the New Law - the legal code of the Old Law is considered
to have been replaced, but its contents have been included in the New Law,
where the original function is fulfilled
4. The 10 Commandments are therefore still a good summary of aspects of the
New Law, even though they are part of the Old Law
It should also be clear that these are not my imaginings, but supported by
Trent, the CCC, other catechisms, other apologists, online Catholic
university webpages, the Catholic Encyclopedia, a book written by a Catholic
theologian and approved by a Catholic bishop, and a pope or two.
Therefore accusations that we are antinomians are false. Accusations that
we do away with the commandments to not steal, not murder, not commit
adultery, etc., are also false.
You're going to have a pretty tough time showing how I misinterpret Catholic
teaching. I think it's high time that you two Adventists stop thinking you
know more about Catholicism than Catholics do. On other Catholic issues,
you most certainly do not. Don't pretend it's different on this one.
If you're going to continue this charade, you need to cite evidence that
Catholicism teaches that the 10 Commandments are not part of the Mosaic Law
/ Old Law. If you do so, you'll need to explain the citations I've provided
that say they are part of the Mosaic Law.
Now that I've established that the two of you are going on at a straw man,
please address what the Bible says on the matter of the distinction between
commandments, statues, and ordinances, and the distinction between the Law
of Moses and the Law of God in the Old Testament. I've already cited the
biblical evidence that these distinctions are artificial and not biblical.
You can deal with it from there.
God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/
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