Discussion:
Peter IS the 1st Pope !
(too old to reply)
Stephen Korsman
2006-08-01 18:47:55 UTC
Permalink
"God established the Catholic Church for All"
Who cares. A Pope is a man made position
God established Saint Peter as the 1st pope.
Mt 16:15 He *said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh
and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
18 I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build
My
church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
It is upon the above passage that some claim that Peter was the first head
of the church. Catholics believe that Jesus is call Peter the rock upon
which the church will be built. Protestants believe that the rock Jesus
was
referring to was Himself or the statement that Peter made.
Mt 16:23 But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are a
stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God's
interests,
but man's."
Just five verses later we see the rock of Catholicism called Satan. Let
us
also not forget how rock solid Peter was the night Jesus was tried or how
he
was rock among the rest of the disciples at Galilee when he said "I am
going
fishing" rather than saying 'I am going to proclaim the gospel of Jesus
Christ.' Peter was just what his name implies, a small stone easily moved
by the circumstances around him.
Just looking at the one short passage in Matthew a person might come to
the
conclusion that Peter is indeed that rock. But in order to do that we
have
to ignore the rest of scripture that identifies Jesus Christ as the rock
told about in the Old Testament and described as the chief cornerstone by
Paul. If you will read the passage in Ephesians you can't help but notice
that no one apostle is singled out, but all are called the foundation of
the
church as are the prophets (i.e. writers) of the Old Testament.
Eph 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are
fellow
citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets,
**Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,**
21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a
holy temple in the Lord,
Ps 118:22 The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief corner stone.
Lk 20:17 But Jesus looked at them and said, "What then is this that is
'The stone which the builders rejected,
This became the chief corner stone'?
18 Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces; but on
whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust."
Da 2:35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were
crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer
threshing
floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was
found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and
filled the whole earth.
The word of God clearly identifies who the rock is upon whom the church is
built. That rock is Jesus.
Abraham is also called a rock. And there are different analogies in
different places. Jesus can be the cornerstone, or the foundation, or the
builder. Sometimes the Apostles are the foundation, sometimes cornerstones,
sometimes pillars. We shouldn't force all analogies to use the same terms
to mean the same thing, when they are clearly different analogies.

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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---------
NI | KA

add an s before .co.za
Stephen Korsman
2006-08-01 18:49:33 UTC
Permalink
.. there is a Church founded by Christ that celebrates the Mass, has
7
sacraments, and a man leadership (Papacy) under the guidance of the
Holy Spirit.
Now what?
duke, American-American
*****
When we read the account of the early church in the book of Acts and
NT
epistles, we find that although Peter was one of the pillars of the
church, he
was not the pope, or a pope - it's not there.
What is a Pope? Who was the first one?
To understand the answer to your question, it would be helpful to know
a history of the title *Pontifex Maximus*...the title ascribed to the
Pope.
I don't want you to try to make me understand your answer. I just want you
to give me the answers.
What is a Pope?
Who was the first one?
He'll never give you a straight answer.

http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/post/index/148/Andrew

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

IC | XC
---------
NI | KA

add an s before .co.za
Whazit Tooyah
2006-08-02 03:12:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Korsman
"God established the Catholic Church for All"
Who cares. A Pope is a man made position
God established Saint Peter as the 1st pope.
Mt 16:15 He *said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh
and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
18 I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build
My
church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
It is upon the above passage that some claim that Peter was the first head
of the church. Catholics believe that Jesus is call Peter the rock upon
which the church will be built. Protestants believe that the rock Jesus
was
referring to was Himself or the statement that Peter made.
Mt 16:23 But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are a
stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God's
interests,
but man's."
Just five verses later we see the rock of Catholicism called Satan. Let
us
also not forget how rock solid Peter was the night Jesus was tried or how
he
was rock among the rest of the disciples at Galilee when he said "I am
going
fishing" rather than saying 'I am going to proclaim the gospel of Jesus
Christ.' Peter was just what his name implies, a small stone easily moved
by the circumstances around him.
Just looking at the one short passage in Matthew a person might come to
the
conclusion that Peter is indeed that rock. But in order to do that we
have
to ignore the rest of scripture that identifies Jesus Christ as the rock
told about in the Old Testament and described as the chief cornerstone by
Paul. If you will read the passage in Ephesians you can't help but notice
that no one apostle is singled out, but all are called the foundation of
the
church as are the prophets (i.e. writers) of the Old Testament.
Eph 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are
fellow
citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets,
**Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,**
21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a
holy temple in the Lord,
Ps 118:22 The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief corner stone.
Lk 20:17 But Jesus looked at them and said, "What then is this that is
'The stone which the builders rejected,
This became the chief corner stone'?
18 Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces; but on
whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust."
Da 2:35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were
crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer
threshing
floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was
found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and
filled the whole earth.
The word of God clearly identifies who the rock is upon whom the church is
built. That rock is Jesus.
Abraham is also called a rock. And there are different analogies in
different places. Jesus can be the cornerstone, or the foundation, or the
builder. Sometimes the Apostles are the foundation, sometimes
cornerstones,
sometimes pillars. We shouldn't force all analogies to use the same terms
to mean the same thing, when they are clearly different analogies.
God bless,
Stephen
Jesus as the cornerstone, yes but as a foundation, I am not so sure. The one
time I did find Christ referred to a foundation, it was in reference to the
teachings about Christ that Paul had laid. (1 Cor 3:10-14) I found the one
place where Abraham is referred to as a rock, but as a rock from which the
Israelites were hewn. I also know that in Galatians Paul referred to the
other apostles as reputed pillars. What I haven't found is where the
apostles or an apostle is called a cornerstone. I searched twelve Bibles
and every reference I found made reference to the stone which the builders
rejected becoming the cornerstone. We all know and acknowledge that Jesus
is that stone. 1 Peter 2 makes reference to that also but prefaces it with
the thought the we as believers are living stones being used to build the
church upon the foundation of the cornerstone. Paul called the apostles
collectively the foundation of the church and the wall in heaven has twelve
foundation stones with the names of the apostles. There is no other
scripture other than a disputed understanding of Matt 16 that calls Peter or
any apostle as a singular rock or foundation upon which the church is built.

On this one Stephen, I think the foundation for the belief is lacking in
scripture and is based on tradition alone.
--
WT

By this all men will know that you are My disciples,
if you have love for one another
Stephen Korsman
2006-08-02 20:12:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
"God established the Catholic Church for All"
Who cares. A Pope is a man made position
God established Saint Peter as the 1st pope.
Mt 16:15 He *said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh
and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
18 I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build
My
church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
It is upon the above passage that some claim that Peter was the first head
of the church. Catholics believe that Jesus is call Peter the rock upon
which the church will be built. Protestants believe that the rock Jesus
was
referring to was Himself or the statement that Peter made.
Mt 16:23 But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You
are
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
a
stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God's
interests,
but man's."
Just five verses later we see the rock of Catholicism called Satan.
Let
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
us
also not forget how rock solid Peter was the night Jesus was tried or how
he
was rock among the rest of the disciples at Galilee when he said "I am
going
fishing" rather than saying 'I am going to proclaim the gospel of Jesus
Christ.' Peter was just what his name implies, a small stone easily moved
by the circumstances around him.
Just looking at the one short passage in Matthew a person might come to
the
conclusion that Peter is indeed that rock. But in order to do that we
have
to ignore the rest of scripture that identifies Jesus Christ as the rock
told about in the Old Testament and described as the chief cornerstone by
Paul. If you will read the passage in Ephesians you can't help but notice
that no one apostle is singled out, but all are called the foundation of
the
church as are the prophets (i.e. writers) of the Old Testament.
Eph 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are
fellow
citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets,
**Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,**
21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a
holy temple in the Lord,
Ps 118:22 The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief corner stone.
Lk 20:17 But Jesus looked at them and said, "What then is this that is
'The stone which the builders rejected,
This became the chief corner stone'?
18 Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces; but on
whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust."
Da 2:35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were
crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer
threshing
floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was
found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and
filled the whole earth.
The word of God clearly identifies who the rock is upon whom the church is
built. That rock is Jesus.
Abraham is also called a rock. And there are different analogies in
different places. Jesus can be the cornerstone, or the foundation, or the
builder. Sometimes the Apostles are the foundation, sometimes cornerstones,
sometimes pillars. We shouldn't force all analogies to use the same terms
to mean the same thing, when they are clearly different analogies.
God bless,
Stephen
Jesus as the cornerstone, yes but as a foundation, I am not so sure. The one
time I did find Christ referred to a foundation, it was in reference to the
teachings about Christ that Paul had laid. (1 Cor 3:10-14)
It's still a valid analogy.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
I found the one
place where Abraham is referred to as a rock, but as a rock from which the
Israelites were hewn. I also know that in Galatians Paul referred to the
other apostles as reputed pillars. What I haven't found is where the
apostles or an apostle is called a cornerstone. I searched twelve Bibles
and every reference I found made reference to the stone which the builders
rejected becoming the cornerstone.
True ... I was just writing from memory, not looking them up ... but the
concept of a chief cornerstone implies other cornerstones ... to me, anyway.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
We all know and acknowledge that Jesus
is that stone. 1 Peter 2 makes reference to that also but prefaces it with
the thought the we as believers are living stones being used to build the
church upon the foundation of the cornerstone. Paul called the apostles
collectively the foundation of the church and the wall in heaven has twelve
foundation stones with the names of the apostles.
I consider that to be a parallel with Jesus being the chief cornerstone, the
apostles being the remainder of the foundation.

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,
Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone
Post by Whazit Tooyah
There is no other
scripture other than a disputed understanding of Matt 16 that calls Peter or
any apostle as a singular rock or foundation upon which the church is built.
I think the biblical evidence for Peter being singled out as their leader is
very strong. Grammatically, I don't see how Matt 16 can be interpreted any
other way, as a primary meaning anyway. Peter was renamed "rock" for a
reason - both petros/petra and kephas mean rock, not pebble. "You are
kephas and on this kephas ..." looks pretty clear ... no other kephas was
mentioned. Without commentary putting Jesus pointing to himself as the
context, "this kephas" is most logically taken to be the person that was
just given Kephas as a name and mentioned immediately prior to "this."
Post by Whazit Tooyah
On this one Stephen, I think the foundation for the belief is lacking in
scripture and is based on tradition alone.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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Stephen Korsman
2006-08-02 20:18:43 UTC
Permalink
"duke" wrote in message
On 2 Aug 2006 01:35:07 -0700,
The Pope is the elected leader of Satan's church
Interesting comment from a protest_er. Christ called it "his" Church,
you
call
it satan's church.
Hello Duke,
No where in the bible can you find where Jesus called the catholic church
"His church". When Peter answered Him by telling Jesus who He was, Jesus
said "Upon this I will build my church". He didn't say upon YOU Peter I
will build my church. No where in the bible will you find ANY
denomination...absolutely no where!
Jesus gave Simon a new name ... Peter/Kephas, which means rock. He then
said, "You are <word-for-rock> and on this <word-for-rock> I will build my
church."

That goes for either the Greek text or Aramaic spoken words.

Even in English, it's the same - "this" refers back to the one just
mentioned. So "this rock" refers back to the rock just mentioned. There
were no other rocks in the passage apart from the person given that word as
a new name.

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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add an s before .co.za
Stephen Korsman
2006-08-02 20:22:04 UTC
Permalink
x-no-archive: yes
© 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no portion of this
article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of the
author
.. there is a Church founded by Christ that celebrates the Mass,
has 7
sacraments, and a man leadership (Papacy) under the guidance of the
Holy Spirit.
Now what?
duke, American-American
*****
When we read the account of the early church in the book of Acts and
NT
epistles, we find that although Peter was one of the pillars of the
church, he
was not the pope, or a pope - it's not there.
They didn't speak English during the time of Saint Peter, "Pope"
is an English word.
Therefore, the whole idea is a deception to promulgate the
unscriptural idea
Therefore, your entire statement is incorrect, see above. Saint Peter
IS the 1st Pope of Gods Catholic church.
This is true according to what they taught you, but if you read the
account
of the early church in the book of Acts and the NT epistles... you will
find
that although Peter was one of the pillars of the church, he was not a
pope.
So............what is a pope?
A "pope" is an anti-Christ, a phony baloney invention of corrupt human
beings.
If that's the definition of "pope" then Peter was never a pope, and nor was
John Paul II, and Benedict XVI isn't pope either. But they're still the
leaders of the Christian community, chosen by God.
Or further, who is a pope?
There is no church office in the Bible called "pope", so take your
choice!
You want to be pope this week?
I'll take next week!
There are no cardinals. There are no archbishops.
There are priests, and there are bishops.
What is the name of your church's bishop?

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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add an s before .co.za
Stephen Korsman
2006-08-04 18:55:33 UTC
Permalink
x-no-archive: yes
On Fri, 4 Aug 2006 07:04:10 +0200, "Stephen Korsman"
© 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no portion of this
article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of the
author
x-no-archive: yes
On Wed, 2 Aug 2006 22:22:04 +0200, "Stephen Korsman"
© 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no portion of this
article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of the
author
x-no-archive: yes
© 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no portion of this
article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of the
author
On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 23:54:37 GMT, "Andrew"
.. there is a Church founded by Christ that celebrates the Mass,
has 7
sacraments, and a man leadership (Papacy) under the guidance
of
the
Holy Spirit.
Now what?
duke, American-American
*****
When we read the account of the early church in the book of
Acts
and
NT
epistles, we find that although Peter was one of the pillars of
the
church, he
was not the pope, or a pope - it's not there.
They didn't speak English during the time of Saint Peter, "Pope"
is an English word.
Therefore, the whole idea is a deception to promulgate the
unscriptural idea
Therefore, your entire statement is incorrect, see above. Saint
Peter
IS the 1st Pope of Gods Catholic church.
This is true according to what they taught you, but if you read the
account
of the early church in the book of Acts and the NT epistles... you
will
find
that although Peter was one of the pillars of the church, he was
not
a
pope.
So............what is a pope?
A "pope" is an anti-Christ, a phony baloney invention of corrupt human
beings.
If that's the definition of "pope" then Peter was never a pope, and
nor
was
John Paul II, and Benedict XVI isn't pope either. But they're still the
leaders of the Christian community,
No, they are not! I can list you probably 2,000 churches without even
breathing hard, that do not acknowledge the Roman Catholic pope.
;-)
I certainly don't.
Your opinion is equal to the sum on the first century AD churches
multiplied
by the number of first century Baptist congregations. Zero.
chosen by God.
No! he is chosen by a bunch of silly old retards in Rome who wear
funny dresses!
And, yes, I have only the worst possible CONTEMPT for the practice,
and for the old PERVERTS who "choose your pope."
He / and they usurp the rightful place of the Holy Spirit.
Nope, that's you.
And MANY of the "decrees from the Vatican" are counter-Biblical!
(that means AGAINST the Holy Spirit)
Nonsense.
john w
Or further, who is a pope?
There is no church office in the Bible called "pope", so take your
choice!
You want to be pope this week?
I'll take next week!
There are no cardinals. There are no archbishops.
There are priests, and there are bishops.
What is the name of your church's bishop?
Dr Whatsittoya
So you're not attending a biblical church then.
Whatsittoya?
You have not earned the right to ask me the time of day in Seattle!
Where does it say that in the Bible?

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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NI | KA

add an s before .co.za
Stephen Korsman
2006-08-04 18:55:34 UTC
Permalink
x-no-archive: yes
© 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no portion of this
article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of the
author
That is so true..which is why the argument "it isnt in the bible" is
not a valid point.
In this case, you are correct. However, in many cases, the point IS
valid.
and in many cases where a specific issue is not mentioned, enough
similar teaching is given that we can draw a fairly specific
conclusion.
What too many do NOT understand is that the Bible is DELIBERATELY
silent on MANY modern issues meaning that God grants many more freedom
than they're comfortable with.
For that reason, such "leadership" as that found within the Vatican,
and such leadership as that found in Calvinism and the "Reformed"
churches go to great lengths to "fill in the gaps" God left, and
"correct" His divine omissions.
THen, Why does Rome claim to have changed the Sabbath sanctification to
Sunday, when that's not a command of God, or His Son, nor found
anywhere in the bible, and fills in the gaps with their traditions and
commands and dogma, and why do you a Baptist obey them?
Simply because there is biblical evidence that the early Christians kept
Sunday, that the Sabbath is not meant for Christians, and the early
Christians wrote in other texts that they kept Sunday.

Your claims about Rome's claims do not match up with Rome's claims.

http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/post/index/238/I-B-Wonderin

http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/post/index/239/I-B-Wondering-2

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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add an s before .co.za
I. B. Wonderin
2006-08-05 20:34:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Korsman
x-no-archive: yes
© 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no portion of this
article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of the
author
That is so true..which is why the argument "it isnt in the bible" is
not a valid point.
In this case, you are correct. However, in many cases, the point IS
valid.
and in many cases where a specific issue is not mentioned, enough
similar teaching is given that we can draw a fairly specific
conclusion.
What too many do NOT understand is that the Bible is DELIBERATELY
silent on MANY modern issues meaning that God grants many more freedom
than they're comfortable with.
For that reason, such "leadership" as that found within the Vatican,
and such leadership as that found in Calvinism and the "Reformed"
churches go to great lengths to "fill in the gaps" God left, and
"correct" His divine omissions.
THen, Why does Rome claim to have changed the Sabbath sanctification to
Sunday, when that's not a command of God, or His Son, nor found
anywhere in the bible, and fills in the gaps with their traditions and
commands and dogma, and why do you a Baptist obey them?
Simply because there is biblical evidence that the early Christians kept
Sunday, that the Sabbath is not meant for Christians, and the early
Christians wrote in other texts that they kept Sunday.
Your claims about Rome's claims do not match up with Rome's claims.
http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/post/index/238/I-B-Wonderin
http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/post/index/239/I-B-Wondering-2
Korsman is a deceiver...
http://snipurl.com/KorsmansExpose

Rome has two early witnesses to Sunday keeping, one from Rome and one
from Alexandria, (and another, Barnabus, which they themselves claim was
in error and his writings uninspired, although his writing wqere read in
Alexandria as scripture... --And as I quoted previously Socrates
Scholasticus, a church historian of the fifth century A.D., wrote, "For
although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred
mysteries [the Lord's Supper] on the sabbath of every week, yet the
Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient
tradition, have ceased to do this."[2] And Sozomen, a contemporary of
Socrates, wrote, "The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere,
assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the
week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria."[
neither of those witnesses ever claimed that Christ nor the apostles
changed the Sabbath, nor sanctified Sunday, and those two churches were
unique at that time, as the rest of the Christian world kept the
seventh-day Sabbath. As Josephus the Jewish Historian recorded:"There is
no city anywhere of the Greeks nor of the barbarians, to which the
observance of the seventh day, in which we rest, has not reached"
(Against Apion 2.282 [Loeb, 1:404-71).

Jewish Encyclopedia:
Josephus, in the main, follows the Biblical narrative, giving the word
"Sabbath" the meaning "rest" ("Ant." i. 1, § 1), and controverting the
stupid etymology of the name upheld by Apion, according to whom the Jews
were forced to observe the Sabbath by the fact of their being afflicted
with bubonic boils known in Egyptian by a word similar to the Hebrew
word "sabbath" ("Contra Ap." ii., § 2). Moreover, his descriptions of
Sabbath celebration do not differ from the Biblical. That the beginning
and end of the Sabbath were announced by trumpet-blasts ("B. J." iv. 9,
§ 12) is shown by the Mishnah (Suk. v. 5).

Josephus makes much of the spread of Sabbath observance in
non-Palestinian cities and among non-Jews ("Contra Ap." ii., § 39; comp.
Philo, "De Vita Moysis," ii. 137 [ed. Mangey]). That he does not
exaggerate is apparent from the comments of Roman writers on the Jewish
Sabbath. Horace, in his "Satires" (i. 9, 69), speaks of "tricesima
Sabbata," which certainly does not refer to a Sabbath so numbered by the
Jews. Juvenal ("Satires," xiv. 96-106), Persius (v. 179-184), Martial
(iv. 4, 7), and Seneca (Augustine, "De Civitate Dei," vi. 11) also refer
to the Sabbath. In the Maccabean struggle the observance of the Sabbath
came to have special significance as distinguishing the faithful from
the half-hearted; but Josephus confirms I Macc. ii. 39-41, where the
faithful, under Mattathias, decided to resist if attacked on the
Sabbath, and not to permit themselves to be destroyed for the sake of
literal obedience to the Sabbath law (comp. "Ant." xii. 6, § 2). He
mentions instances in which the Jews were taken advantage of on the
Sabbath-day-for example, by Ptolemy Lagi ("Ant." xii. 1; xviii. 9, § 2).
Still, according to Josephus, the Jews carried on offensive warfare on
the Sabbath ("B. J." ii. 19, § 2). Titus was outwitted by the plea that
it was unlawful for Jews to treat of peace on the seventh day (ib. iv.
2, § 3). Josephus also publishes decrees exempting Jews from military
service on the Sabbath, which exemption gave rise to persecutions under
Tiberius ("Ant." xiv. 10, § 12 et seq.). The Essenes are referred to as
very rigorous observers of the Sabbath ("B. J." ii. 8, § 9).


Saturday is called "the sacred day" by Tibullus (Tibullus 1.3*.18
[Loeb, 206-7]; cf. more authorities in Eusebius, Preparation for the
Gospel 13.13.677c [ed. E.H. Gifford], 2:732).


Clement of Alexandria: "Not only the Hebrews, but also the Greeks hold
each seventh day to be sacred" (alla kai ten hebdomin hieran, ou monon
hoi Hebraioi, alla kai hoi HellEnes isasi, Stroniata 5.14 [ANF 2:469; PG
9.161-62]). He proves this from Hesiod, Homer, Linus and Callimachus, by
whom the seventh day (hebdomz) is called the "sacred day" (hieron
Ernar). By Philo, it is called the public feast" (heorte pandilmos)
belonging to all the Gentiles equally (Flaccus 14 [116] [Loeb,
9:366-67]).



Rome never claimed that the apostles changed the Sabbath till 1000 and
500 plus years later at Trent. Korsman can't prove they did, for it's
not biblical, nor established historically, nor by Rome's early claims,
So he's irate.

So, What is Korsman really upset about, and what started this problem he
has here?

Rome lies, The Apostles changed nothing, and he can't prove they did, as
he claims, according to Rome's own history, teaching and doctrines which
he is claiming to uphold and defend....

Here is Rome rebutting Korsman's claims.

http://snipurl.com/RomesClaims

ROME'S CHALLENGE

------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------

Why Do Protestants Keep Sunday?


------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------



Most Christians assume that Sunday is the biblically approved day of
worship. The Roman Catholic Church protests that it transferred
Christian worship from the biblical Sabbath (Saturday) to Sunday, and
that to try to argue that the change was made in the Bible is both
dishonest and a denial of Catholic authority. If Protestantism wants to
base its teachings only on the Bible, it should worship on Saturday.

Over one hundred years ago the Catholic Mirror ran a series of articles
discussing the right of the Protestant churches to worship on Sunday.
The articles stressed that unless one was willing to accept the
authority of the Catholic Church to designate the day of worship, the
Christian should observe Saturday. Those articles are presented here in
their entirety.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------

For ready reference purposes, here are links to verses quoted in the
article below-

New Testament verses relating to the apostles
assembling the "first day of the week"
All New Testament references to
"The Lord's day" or "day of the Lord"

Luke 24:33-40
John 20:19
John 20:26-29
Acts 2:1
Acts 20:6-7
Acts 2:46
1 Cor. 16:1-2
Acts 18:4
Acts 2:20
1 Cor. 1:8
1 Cor. 5:5
2 Cor. 1:13-14
Phil. 1:6
Phil. 1:10
2 Pet. 3:10
2 Pet. 3:12
Rev 1:10



FEBRUARY 24, 1893, the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists
adopted certain resolutions appealing to the government and people of
the United States from the decision of the Supreme Court declaring this
to be a Christian nation, and from the action of Congress in legislating
upon the subject of religion*, and remonstrating against the principle
and all the consequences of the same. In March 1893, the International
Religious Liberty Association printed these resolutions in a tract
entitled Appeal and Remonstrance. On receipt of one of these, the editor
of the Catholic Mirror of Baltimore, Maryland, published a series of
four editorials, which appeared in that paper September, 2, 9, 16, and
23, 1893. The Catholic Mirror was the official organ of Cardinal Gibbons
and the Papacy in the United States.

Photo copyright 1914 by Underwood & Underwood
James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore Maryland (1877-1921)


These articles, therefore, although not written by the Cardinal's own
hand, appeared under his official sanction, and as the expression of the
Papacy to Protestantism, and the demand of the Papacy that Protestants
shall render to the Papacy an account of why they keep Sunday and also
of how they keep it.

The following matter (excepting the footnotes, the editor's note in
brackets beginning on page 25 and ending on page 27, and the two
Appendixes) is a verbatim reprint of these editorials, including the
title on page 2.


* The Supreme Court said in a decision, "this is a Christian nation"
(Holy Trinity Church v. U.S.), on February 29th, 1892. The
Congressional legislation was H.R. 7520 (the Durborow World's Fair
Bill), a bill passed by the 52nd U.S. Congress and signed into law by
President Harrison on August 5, 1892, appropriating $2,500,000 to the
Chicago World's Fair (Columbian Exposition), on the condition that the
fair be closed to the public on Sundays. The bill declared "the first
day of the week commonly called Sunday" to be "the Christian Sabbath,"
"the Sabbath of the nation". (U. S. Statutes, Vol. 27, Part 1, pp. 363,
388.) Despite this, the fair directors eventually bowed to public
pressure and opened the fair on Sundays, beginning on May 28th of 1893.

Notre Dame University has the following issues of the Catholic Mirror
archived on microfilm.
Archdiocese of Baltimore Maryland website, which published the Catholic
Mirror.





[From page 8 of the Catholic Mirror of Sept. 2, 1893]

THE CHRISTIAN SABBATH

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--------

THE GENUINE OFFSPRING OF THE UNION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND THE
CATHOLIC CHURCH HIS SPOUSE. THE CLAIMS OF PROTESTANTISM TO ANY PART
THEREIN PROVED TO BE GROUNDLESS, SELF-CONTRADICTORY, AND SUICIDAL


------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------

Our attention has been called to the above subject in the past week by
the receipt of a brochure of twenty-one pages, published by the
International Religious Liberty Association, entitled, "Appeal and
Remonstrance," embodying resolutions adopted the General Conference of
the Seventh-day Adventists (February 24th, '93). The resolutions
criticize and censure, with much acerbity, the action of the United
States Congress, and of the Supreme Court, for the invading the rights
of the people by closing the World's Fair on Sunday.
The Adventists are the only body of Christians with the Bible as
their teacher, who can find no warrant in its pages for the change of
the day from the seventh to the first. Hence their appellation,
"Seventh-day Adventists." Their cardinal principle consists in setting
apart Saturday for the exclusive worship of God, in conformity with the
positive command of God himself, repeatedly reiterated in the sacred
books of the Old and New Testaments, literally obeyed by the children of
Israel for thousands of years to this day, and endorsed by the teaching
and practice of the Son of God whilst on earth.
Per contra, the Protestants of the world, the Adventists excepted,
with the same Bible as their cherished and sole infallible teacher, by
their practice, since their appearance in the sixteenth century, with
the time-honored practice of the Jewish people before their eyes, have
rejected the day named for His worship by God, and assumed, in apparent
contradiction of His command, a day for His worship never once referred
to for that purpose, in the pages of that Sacred Volume.
What Protestant pulpit does not ring almost every Sunday with loud
and impassioned invectives against Sabbath violation? Who can forget the
fanatical clamor of the Protestant ministers throughout the length and
breadth of the land against opening the gates of the World's Fair on
Sunday? the thousands of petitions, signed by millions, to save the
Lord's Day from desecration? Surely, such general and widespread
excitement and noisy remonstrance could not have existed without the
strongest grounds for such animated protests.
And when quarters were assigned at the World's Fair to the various
sects of Protestantism for the exhibition of articles, who can forget
the emphatic expressions of virtuous and conscientious indignation
exhibited by our Presbyterian brethren, as soon as they learned of the
decision of the Supreme Court not to interfere in the Sunday opening?
The newspapers informed us that they flatly refused to utilize the space
accorded them, or open their boxes, demanding the right to withdraw the
articles, in rigid adherence to their principles, and thus decline all
contact with the sacrilegious and Sabbath-breaking Exhibition.
Doubtless, our Calvinistic brethren deserved and shared the sympathy
of all the other sects, who, however, lost the opportunity of posing as
martyrs in vindication of the Sabbath observance.
They thus became a "spectacle to the world, to angels, and to men,"
although their Protestant brethren, who failed to share the monopoly,
were uncharitably and enviously disposed to attribute their steadfast
adherence to religious principle, to Pharisaical pride and dogged
obstinacy.
Our purpose in throwing off this article, is to shed such light on
this all-important question (for were the Sabbath question to be removed
from the Protestant pulpit, the sects would feel lost, and the preachers
be deprived of their "Cheshire cheese") that our readers may be able to
comprehend the question in all its bearings, and thus reach a clear
conviction.
The Christian world is, morally speaking, united on the question and
practice of worshiping God on the first day of the week.
The Israelites, scattered all over the earth, keep the last day of
the week sacred to the worship of the Deity. In this particular, the
Seventh-day Adventists (a sect of Christians numerically few) have also
selected the same day.
Israelites and Adventists both appeal to the Bible for the divine
command, persistently obliging the strict observance of Saturday.
The Israelite respects the authority of the Old Testament only, but
the Adventist, who is a Christian, accepts the New Testament on the same
ground as the Old: viz., an inspired record also. He finds that the
Bible, his teacher, is consistent in both parts, that the Redeemer,
during His mortal life, never kept any other day than Saturday. The
Gospels plainly evince to him this fact; whilst, in the pages of the
Acts of the Apostles, the Epistles, and the Apocalypse, not the vestige
of an act canceling the Saturday arrangement can be found.
The Adventists, therefore, in common with Israelites, derive their
belief from the Old Testament, which position is confirmed by the New
Testament, endorsing fully by the life and practice of the Redeemer and
His apostles the teaching of the Sacred Word for nearly a century of the
Christian era.
Numerically considered, the Seventh-day Adventists form an
insignificant portion of the Protestants population of the earth, but,
as the question is not one of numbers, but of truth, and right, a strict
sense of justice forbids the condemnation of this little sect without a
calm and unbiased investigation; this is none of our funeral.
The Protestant world has been, from its infancy, in the sixteenth
century, in thorough accord with the Catholic Church, in keeping "holy,"
not Saturday, but Sunday. The discussion of the grounds that led to this
unanimity of sentiment and practice of over 300 years, must help toward
placing Protestantism on a solid basis in this particular, should the
arguments in favor of its position overcome those furnished by the
Israelites and Adventists, the Bible, the sole recognized teacher of
both litigants, being the umpire and witness. If however, on the other
hand, the latter furnish arguments, incontrovertible by the great mass
of Protestants, both cases of litigants, appealing to their common
teacher, the Bible, the great body of Protestants, so far from
clamoring, as they do with vigorous pertinacity for the strict keeping
of Sunday, have no other resource [recourse] left than the admission
that they have been teaching and practicing what is Scripturally false
for over three centuries, by adopting the teaching and practice of what
they have always pretended to believe an apostate church, contrary to
every warrant and teaching of sacred Scripture. To add to the intensity
of this Scriptural and unpardonable blunder, it involves one of the most
positive and emphatic commands of God to His servant, man: "Remember the
Sabbath day, to keep it holy."
No Protestant living today has ever yet obeyed that command,
preferring to follow the apostate church referred to than his teacher
the Bible, which, from Genesis to Revelation, teaches no other doctrine,
should the Israelites and Seventh-day Adventists be correct. Both sides
appeal to the Bible as their "infallible" teacher. Let the Bible decide
whether Saturday or Sunday be the day enjoined by God. One of the two
bodies must be wrong, and, whereas a false position on this
all-important question involves terrible penalties, threatened by God
Himself, against the transgressor of this "perpetual covenant," we shall
enter on the discussion of the merits of the arguments wielded by both
sides. Neither is the discussion of this paramount subject above the
capacity of ordinary minds, nor does it involve extraordinary study. It
resolves itself into a few plain questions easy of solution:
1st. Which day of the week does the Bible enjoin to be kept holy?
2nd. Has the New Testament modified by precept or practice the
original command?
3rd. Have Protestants, since the sixteenth century, obeyed the
command of God by keeping "holy" the day enjoined by their infallible
guide and teacher, the Bible? and if not, why not?
To the above three questions we pledge ourselves to furnish as many
intelligent answers, which cannot fail to vindicate the truth and uphold
the deformity of error.




[From page 8 of the Catholic Mirror of Sept. 9, 1893]

THE CHRISTIAN SABBATH

------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------

THE GENUINE OFFSPRING OF THE UNION OF THE HOLY GHOST AND THE CATHOLIC
CHURCH HIS SPOUSE. THE CLAIMS OF PROTESTANTISM TO ANY PART THEREIN
PROVED TO BE GROUNDLESS, SELF-CONTRADICTORY, AND SUICIDAL


------------------------------------------------------------------------
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"But faith, fanatic faith, one wedded fast,
To some dear falsehood, hugs it to the last."

-Moore.

Conformably to our promise in our last issue, we proceed to unmask
one of the most flagrant errors and most unpardonable inconsistencies of
the Biblical rule of faith. Lest, however, we be misunderstood, we deem
it necessary to premise that Protestantism recognizes no rule of faith,
no teacher, save the "infallible Bible." As the Catholic yields his
judgment in spiritual matters implicitly, and with the unreserved
confidence, to the voice of his church, so, too, the Protestant
recognizes no teacher but the Bible. All his spirituality is derived
from its teachings. It is to him the voice of God addressing him through
his sole inspired teacher. It embodies his religion, his faith, and his
practice. The language of Chillingworth, "The Bible, the whole Bible,
and nothing but the Bible, is the religion of Protestants," is only one
form of the same idea multifariously convertible into other forms, such
as "the Book of God," "the Charter of Our Salvation," "the Oracle of Our
Christian Faith," "God's Text-Book to the race of Mankind," etc., etc.
It is, then, an incontrovertible fact that the Bible alone is the
teacher of Protestant Christianity. Assuming this fact, we will now
proceed to discuss the merits of the question involved in our last
issue. Recognizing what is undeniable, the fact of a direct
contradiction between the teaching and practice of Protestant
Christianity - the Seventh-day Adventists excepted - on the one hand,
and that of the Jewish people on the other, both observing different
days of the week for the worship of God, we will proceed to take the
testimony of the teacher common to both claimants, the Bible. The first
expression with which we come in contact in the Sacred Word, is found in
Gen., 2d chapter, 2d verse "And on the seventh day He (God) rested from
all His work which He had made." The next reference to this matter is to
be found in Exodus 20, where God commanded the seventh day to be kept,
because He had himself rested from the work of creation on that day; and
the sacred text informs us that for that reason He desired it kept, in
the following words; "wherefore, the Lord blessed the seventh day and
sanctified it." (1) Again we read in 31st chapter, 15th verse: "Six days
you shall do work; in the seventh day is the Sabbath, the rest holy to
the Lord;" sixteenth verse: "it is an everlasting covenant," "and a
perpetual sign," "for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and in
the seventh He ceased from work."
In the Old Testament, reference is made one hundred and twenty-six
times to the Sabbath, and all these texts conspire harmoniously in
voicing the will of God commanding the seventh day to be kept, because
God Himself first kept it, making it obligatory on all as "a perpetual
covenant." Nor can we imagine any one foolhardy enough to question the
identity of Saturday with the Sabbath or seventh day, seeing that the
people of Israel have been keeping the Saturday from the giving of the
law, A.M. 2514 to A.D. 1893, a period of 3383 years. With the example of
the Israelites before our eyes today, there is no historical fact better
established than that referred to; viz., that the chosen people of God,
the guardians of the Old Testament, the living representatives of the
only divine religion hitherto, had for a period of 1490 years anterior
to Christianity, preserved the weekly practice the living tradition of
the correct interpretation of the special day of the week, Saturday, to
be kept "holy to the Lord," which tradition they have extended by their
own practice to an additional period of 1893 years more, thus covering
the full extent of the Christian dispensation. We deem it necessary to
be perfectly clear on this point, for reasons that will appear more
fully hereafter. The Bible - the Old Testament - confirmed by the living
tradition of a weekly practice for 3383 years by the chosen people of
God, teaches, then, with absolute certainty, that God had, Himself,
named the day to be "kept holy to Him",- that the day was Saturday, and
that any violation of that command was punishable with death. "Keep you
My Sabbath, for it is holy unto you; he that shall profane it shall be
put to death; he that shall do any work in it, his soul shall perish in
the midst of his people." Ex 31 ch. 14 v.
It is impossible to realize a more severe penalty than that so
solemnly uttered by God Himself in the above text, on all who violate a
command referred to no less than one hundred and twenty-six times in the
old law. The ten commandments of the Old Testament are formally
impressed on the memory of the child of the Biblical Christian as soon
as possible, but there is not one of the ten made more emphatically
familiar, both in Sunday School and pulpit, than that of keeping "holy"
the Sabbath day.
Having secured the absolute certainty the will of God as regards the
day to be kept holy, from His Sacred Word, because He rested on that
day, which day is confirmed to us by the practice of His chosen people
for thousands of years, we are naturally induced to inquire when and
where God changed the day for His worship; for it is patent to the world
that a change of day has taken place, and inasmuch as no indication of
such change can be found within the pages of the Old Testament, nor in
the practice of the Jewish people who continue for nearly nineteen
centuries of Christianity obeying the written command, we must look to
the exponent of the Christian dispensation; viz., the New Testament, for
the command of God canceling the old Sabbath, Saturday.
We now approach a period covering little short of nineteen centuries,
and proceed to investigate whether the supplemental divine teacher - the
New Testament - contains a decree canceling the mandate of the old law,
and, at the same time, substituting a day for the divinely instituted
Sabbath of the old law, viz., Saturday; for, inasmuch as Saturday was
the day kept and ordered to be kept by God, divine authority alone,
under the form of a canceling decree, could abolish the Saturday
covenant, and another divine mandate, appointing by name another day to
be kept "holy," other than Saturday, is equally necessary to satisfy the
conscience of the Christian believer. The Bible being the only teacher
recognized by the Biblical Christian, the Old Testament failing to point
out a change of day, and yet another day than Saturday being kept "holy"
by the Biblical world, it is surely incumbent on the reformed Christian
to point out in the pages of the New Testament the new divine decree
repealing that of Saturday and substituting that of Sunday, kept by the
Biblicals since the dawn of the Reformation.
Examining the New Testament from cover to cover, critically, we find
the Sabbath referred to sixty-one times. We find, too, that the Saviour
invariably selected the Sabbath (Saturday) to teach in the synagogues
and work miracles. The four Gospels refer to the Sabbath (Saturday)
fifty-one times.
In one instance the Redeemer refers to Himself as "the Lord of the
Sabbath," as mentioned by Matthew and Luke, (2) but during the whole
record of His life, whilst invariably keeping and utilizing the day
(Saturday), He never once hinted at a desire to change it. His apostles
and personal friends afford to us a striking instance of their
scrupulous observance of it after His death, and, whilst His body was
yet in tomb, St. Luke, 23d chap. 56 verse informs us: "And they returned
and prepared spices and ointments, and rested on the sabbath day
according to the commandment." "but on the first day of the week, very
early in the morning, they came, bringing the spices they had prepared."
The "spices" and "ointments" had been prepared Good Friday evening,
because "the Sabbath drew near." 54 Verse. This action on the part of
the personal friends of the Saviour, proves beyond contradiction that
after His death they kept "holy" the Saturday, and regarded the Sunday
as any other day of the week. Can anything, therefore, be more
conclusive than the apostles and the holy women never knew any Sabbath
but Saturday, up to the day of Christ's death?
We now approach the investigation of this interesting question for
the next thirty years, as narrated by the evangelist, St. Luke, in his
Acts of the Apostles. Surely some vestige of the canceling act can be
discovered in the practice of the Apostles during that protracted
period.
But, alas! we are once more doomed to disappointment. Nine (3) times
do we find the Sabbath referred to in the "Acts," but it is the Saturday
(the old Sabbath). Should our readers desire the proof, we refer them to
chapter and verse in each instance. Acts 13c., 14v.; again, same
chapter, 27v., again, 42v.; again, 44v. [Acts 13:14, 27, 42, 44] Once
more, 15c., 31v. [Acts16:13] Again, 17c., 2v.; [Acts 17:2] again 18c.,
4v. [Acts 18:4] "And he (Paul) reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath,
and persuaded the Jews and Greeks." thus the Sabbath (Saturday) from
Genesis to Revelation!!! Thus, it is impossible to find in the New
Testament the slightest interference by the Saviour or his Apostles with
the original Sabbath, but on the contrary, an entire acquiescence in the
original arrangement; nay a plenary endorsement by Him, whilst living;
and an unvaried, active participation in the keeping of that day and no
other by the apostles, for thirty years after His death, as the Acts of
the Apostles has abundantly testified to us.
Hence the conclusion is inevitable; viz., that of those who follow
the Bible as their guide, the Israelites and Seventh-day Adventists have
exclusive weight of evidence on their side, whilst the Biblical
Protestant has not a word in self-defense for his substitution of Sunday
for Saturday. More anon.

(1) Of course the scriptures quoted throughout in these editorials are
from the Douay, or Catholic, Version, -ED.
(2) It is also referred to in Mark 2:28.-ED.
(3) This should be eight.










[From page 8 of the Catholic Mirror of Sept. 16, 1893.]

THE CHRISTIAN SABBATH

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--------

THE GENUINE OFFSPRING OF THE UNION OF THE HOLY GHOST AND THE CATHOLIC
CHURCH HIS SPOUSE. THE CLAIMS OF PROTESTANTISM TO ANY PART THEREIN
PROVED TO BE GROUNDLESS, SELF-CONTRADICTORY, AND SUICIDAL


------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------

When his Satanic Majesty, who was "a murder from the beginning," "and
the father of lies," undertook to open the eyes of our first mother,
Eve, by stimulating her ambition, "You shall be as gods, knowing good
and evil," his action was but the first of many plausible and successful
efforts employed later, in the seduction of millions of her children.
Like Eve, they learn too late, alas! the value of the inducements held
out to allure her weak children from allegiance to God. Nor does the
subject matter of this discussion form an exception to the usual tactics
of his sable majesty.
Over three centuries since, he plausibly represented to a large
number of discontented and ambitious Christians the bright prospect of
the successful inauguration of a "new departure," by the abandonment of
the Church instituted by the Son of God, as their teacher, and the
assumption of a new teacher - the Bible alone - as their newly fledged
oracle.
The sagacity of the evil one foresaw but the brilliant success of
this maneuver. Nor did the result fall short of his most sanguine
expectations.
A bold and adventurous spirit was alone needed to head the
expedition. Him his satanic majesty soon found in the apostate monk,
Luther, who himself repeatedly testifies to the close familiarity that
existed between his master and himself, in his "Table talk," and other
works published in 1558, at Wittenberg, under the inspection of
Melancthon. His colloquies with Satan on various occasions, are
testified to by Luther himself - a witness worthy of all credibility.
What the agency of the serpent tended so effectually to achieve in the
garden, the agency of Luther achieved in the Christian world. (4)

"Give them a pilot to their wandering fleet,
Bold in his art, and tutored to deceit;
Whose hand adventurous shall their helm misguide
To hostile shores, or 'whelm them in the tide."

As the end proposed to himself by the evil one in his raid on the
church of Christ was the destruction of Christianity, we are now engaged
in sifting the means adopted by him to insure his success therein. So
far, they have been found to be misleading, self-contradictory, and
fallacious. We will now proceed with the further investigations of this
imposture.
Having proved to a demonstration that the Redeemer, in no instance,
had, during the period of His life, deviated from the faithful
observance of the Sabbath (Saturday), referred to by the four
evangelists fifty-one times, although He had designated Himself "Lord of
the Sabbath," He never having once, by command or practice, hinted at a
desire on His part to change the day by the substitution of another and
having called special attention to the conduct of the apostles and the
holy women, the very evening of His death, securing beforehand spices
and ointments to be used in embalming His body the morning after the
Sabbath (Saturday), as St. Luke so clearly informs us (Luke 24 ch. 1v.),
thereby placing beyond peradventure, the divine action and will of the
Son of God during life by keeping the Sabbath steadfastly; and having
called attention to the action of His living representatives after his
death, as proved by St. Luke; having also placed before our readers the
indisputable fact that the apostles for the following thirty years
(Acts) never deviated from the practice of their divine Master in this
particular, as St. Luke (Acts 18 ch., 4v.) assures us: "And he (Paul)
reasoned in the synagogues every Sabbath (Saturday), and persuaded the
Jews and the Greeks." The Gentile converts were, as we see from the
text, equally instructed with the Jews, to keep the Saturday, having
been converted to Christianity on that day, "the Jews and the Greeks"
collectively.
Having also called attention to the texts of the Acts bearing on the
exclusive use of the Sabbath by the Jews and Christians for thirty years
after the death of the Saviour as the only day of the week observed by
Christ and His apostles, which period exhausts the inspired record, we
now proceed to supplement our proofs that the Sabbath (Saturday) enjoyed
this exclusive privilege, by calling attention to every instance wherein
the sacred record refers to the first day of the week.
The first reference to Sunday after the resurrection of Christ is to
be found in St. Luke's Gospel, 24 ch., from 33 to 40 vs., and in St.
John's 20 ch., 19 v.
The above texts themselves refer to the sole motive of this gathering
of the part of the apostles. It took place on the day of the
resurrection (Easter Sunday), not for the purpose of inaugurating "the
new departure" from the old Sabbath (Saturday) by keeping "holy" the new
day, for there is not a hint given of prayer, exhortation, or the
reading of the Scriptures, but it indicates the utter demoralization of
the apostles by informing mankind that they were huddled together in
that room in Jerusalem "for fear of the Jews," as St. John, quoted
above, plainly informs us.
The second reference to Sunday is to be found in St. John's Gospel,
20th chapter, 26th to 29th verses: And after eight days, the disciples
were again within, and Thomas with them." The resurrected Redeemer
availed Himself of this meeting of all the apostles to confound the
incredulity of Thomas, who had been absent from the gathering on Easter
Sunday evening. This would have furnished a golden opportunity to the
Redeemer to change the day in the presence of all His apostles, but we
state the simple fact that, on this occasion, as on Easter day, not a
word is said of prayer, praise, or reading of the Scriptures. The third
instance on record, wherein the apostles were assembled on Sunday, is to
be found in Acts, 2d chapter, 1st verse: "The apostles were all of one
accord in one place." (Feast of Pentecost - Sunday.) Now, will this text
afford to our Biblical Christian brethren a vestige of hope that Sunday
substitutes, at length, Saturday? For when we inform them that the Jews
had been keeping this Sunday for 1500 years, and have been keeping it
for eighteen centuries after the establishment of Christianity, at the
same time keeping the weekly Sabbath, there is not to be found either
consolation or comfort in this text. Pentecost is the fiftieth day after
the Passover, (5) which was called the Sabbath of weeks, consisting of
seven times seven days; and the day after the completion of the seventh
weekly Sabbath day, was the chief day of the entire festival,
necessarily Sunday. What Israelite would not pity the cause that would
seek to discover the origin of the keeping of the first day of the week
in his festival of Pentecost, that has been kept by him yearly for over
3,000 years? Who but the Biblical Christian, driven to the wall for a
pretext to excuse his sacrilegious desecration of the Sabbath, always
kept by Christ and His apostles, would have resorted to the Jewish
festival of Pentecost for his act of rebellion against his God and his
teacher, the Bible?
Once more, the Biblical apologists for the change of day call our
attention to the Acts, 20th chapter 6th and 7th verses: "and upon the
first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread,"
etc. To all appearances, the above text should furnish some consolation
to our disgruntled Biblical friends, but being Marplot, we cannot allow
them even this crumb of comfort. We reply by the axiom: "Quod probat
nimis, probat nihil" - "What proves too much, proves nothing." Let us
call attention to the same Acts 2d chapter, 46th verse: "And they,
continuing daily in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house,"
etc. Who does not see at a glance that the text produced to prove the
exclusive prerogative of Sunday, vanishes into thin air - an ignis
fatuus - when placed in juxtaposition with the 46th verse of the same
chapter? What the Biblical Christian claims by this text for Sunday
alone, the same authority, St. Luke, informs us was common to every day
of the week: "And they, continuing daily in the temple, and breaking
bread from house to house."
One text more presents itself, apparently leaning toward a
substitution of Sunday for Saturday. It is taken from St. Paul's 1 Ep.
Cor. 16th chapter, 1st and 2d verses.
"Now concerning the collection for the saints," "On the first day of
the week, let every one of you lay by him in store," etc. Presuming that
the request of St. Paul had been strictly attended to, let us call
attention to what had been done each Saturday during the Saviour's life
and continued for thirty years after, as the book of Acts informs us.
The followers of the Master met "every Sabbath" to hear the word of
God; the Scriptures were read "every Sabbath day." "And Paul, as his
manner was to reason in the synagogue every Sabbath, interposing the
same of the Lord Jesus Christ," etc., Acts 18th chapter 4th verse. What
more absurd conclusion that to infer that reading of the Scriptures,
prayer, exhortation, and preaching, which formed the routine duties of
every Saturday, as had been abundantly proved, were overslaughed by a
request to take up a collection on another day of the week?
In order to appreciate fully the value of this text now under
consideration, it is only needful to recall the action of the apostles
and holy women on Good Friday before sundown. They brought spices and
ointments after He was taken down from the cross; they suspended all
action until the Sabbath "holy to the Lord" had passed, and then took
steps on Sunday morning to complete the process of embalming the sacred
body of Jesus. Why, may we ask, did they not proceed to complete the
work of embalming on Saturday? - Because they knew well that the
embalming of the sacred body of their Master would interfere with the
strict observance of the Sabbath, the keeping of which was paramount;
and until it can be shown that the Sabbath day immediately preceding the
Sunday of our text had not been kept (which would be false, inasmuch as
every Sabbath had been kept), the request of St. Paul to make the
collection on Sunday remains to be classified with the work of the
embalming of Christ's body, which could not be effected on the Sabbath,
and was consequently deferred to the next convenient day; viz., Sunday,
or the first day of the week.
Having disposed of every text to be found in the New Testament
referring to the Sabbath (Saturday), and to the first day of the week
(Sunday); and having shown conclusively from these texts, that, so far,
not a shadow of pretext can be found in the Sacred Volume for the
Biblical substitution of Sunday for Saturday; it only remains for us to
investigate the meaning of the expressions "Lord's Day," and "day of the
Lord," to be found in the New Testament, which we propose to do in our
next article, and conclude with apposite remarks on the incongruities of
a system of religion which we shall have proved to be indefensible,
self-contradictory, and suicidal.

(4) Of course we have not the least sympathy with what is here said
about Luther. Only the Lutherans think that Luther had all the truth,
but his was nevertheless a grand work. He was a Christian hero. Had his
work only been continued as it began, papists would not now be taunting
"Protestants" with the inconsistency of professing to accept the Bible
alone and then following the traditions of the Catholic Church. -ED.
(5) The Passover was always the fourteenth day of the first month,
without any reference whatever to any particular day of the week, and
therefore it was impossible that the Pentecost should always be
"necessarily Sunday," as stated. This note is inserted merely in the
interests of accuracy, and not with the intention that it should have
any bearing on the controversy in the text. - ED.








[From pages 8 and 9 of the Catholic Mirror of Sept. 23, 1893]

THE CHRISTIAN SABBATH

------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------

THE GENUINE OFFSPRING OF THE UNION OF THE HOLY GHOST AND THE CATHOLIC
CHURCH HIS SPOUSE. THE CLAIMS OF PROTESTANTISM TO ANY PART THEREIN
PROVED TO BE GROUNDLESS, SELF-CONTRADICTORY, AND SUICIDAL


------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------

"Halting on crutches of unequal size,
One leg by truth supported, one by lies,
Thus sidle to the goal with awkward pace,
Secure of nothing but to lose the race."

In the present article we propose to investigate carefully a new (and
the last) class of proof assumed to convince the Biblical Christian that
God had substituted Sunday for Saturday for His worship in the new law,
and that the divine will is to be found recorded by the Holy Ghost in
apostolic writings.
We are informed that this radical change has found expression, over
and over again, in a series of texts in which the expression, "the day
of the Lord," or "the Lord's day," is to be found.
The class of texts in the New Testament, under the title "Sabbath,"
numbering 61 in the Gospels, Acts, and Epistles; and the second class,
in which "the first day of the week," or Sunday, having been critically
examined (the latter class numbering nine [eight]); and having been
found not to afford the slightest clue to a change of will on the part
of God as to His day of worship by man, we now proceed to examine the
third and last class of texts relied on to save the Biblical system from
the arraignment of seeking to palm off on the world, in the name of God,
a decree for which there is not the slightest warrant or authority from
their teacher, the Bible.
The first text of this class is to be found in the Acts of the
Apostles, 2d chapter, 20th verse: "The sun shall be turned into
darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of
the Lord shall come." How many Sundays have rolled by since that
prophecy was spoken? So much for that effort to pervert the meaning of
the sacred text from the judgment day to Sunday! The second text of this
class is to be found in 1st Epistle Cor., 1st chapter 8th verse: "Who
shall also confirm you unto the end, that you may be blameless in the
day of our Lord Jesus Christ." What simpleton does not see that the
apostle here plainly indicates the day of judgment? The next text of
this class that presents itself is to be found in the same Epistle, 5th
chapter 5th verse: "To deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction
of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord
Jesus." The incestuous Corinthian was, of course, saved on the Sunday
next following!! How pitiable such a makeshift as this! The fourth text,
2d Cor., 1st chapter, 13th and 14th verse: "And I trust ye shall
acknowledge even to the end, even as ye also are ours in the day of the
Lord Jesus." Sunday or the day of judgment, which? The fifth text is
from St. Paul to the Philippians, 1st chapter, 6th verse: "Being
confident of this very thing, that He who hath begun a good work in you,
will perfect it until the day of Jesus Christ." The good people of
Philippi, in attaining perfection on the following Sunday, could afford
to laugh at our modern rapid transit!
We beg to submit our sixth of the class; viz., Philippians, first
chapter, tenth verse: "That he may be sincere without offense unto the
day of Christ." That day was next Sunday, forsooth! no so long to wait
after all, The seventh text, 2 Ep. Peter, third chapter, tenth verse.
"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night." The
application of this text to Sunday passes the bounds of absurdity. The
eighth text, 2 Ep. Peter, third chapter, twelfth verse: "Waiting for and
hastening unto the coming of the day of the Lord, by which the heavens
being on fire, shall be dissolved," etc. This day of the Lord is the
same referred to in the previous text, the application of both of which
to Sunday next would have left the Christian world sleepless the next
Saturday night. We have presented to our readers eight of the nine texts
relied on to bolster up by text of Scripture the sacrilegious effort to
palm off the "Lord's day" for Sunday, and with what result? Each
furnishes prima facie evidence of the last day, referring to it
directly, absolutely, and unequivocally.
The ninth text wherein we meet the expression "the Lord's day," is
the last to be found in the apostolic writings. The Apocalypse, or
Revelation, first chapter, tenth verse, furnishes it in the following
words of John: "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day;" but it will
afford no more comfort to our Biblical friends than its predecessors of
the same series. Has St. John used the expression previously in his
Gospel or Epistles? - Emphatically, NO. Has he had occasion to refer to
Sunday hitherto? -Yes, twice. How did he designate Sunday on these
occasions? Easter Sunday was called by him (John 20:1) "the first day of
the week." Again, chapter twenty, nineteenth verse: "Now when it was
late that same day, being the first day of the week." Evidently,
although inspired, both in his Gospel and Epistles, he called Sunday
"the first day of the week." On what grounds, then, can it be assumed
that he dropped that designation? Was he more inspired when he wrote the
Apocalypse, or did he adopt a new title for Sunday, because it was now
in vogue? A reply to these questions would be supererogatory especially
to the latter, seeing that the same expression had been used eight times
already by St. Luke, St. Paul and St. Peter, all under divine
inspiration, and surely the Holy Spirit would not inspire St. John to
call Sunday the Lord's day, whilst He inspired Sts. Luke, Paul, and
Peter, collectively, to entitle the day of judgment "the Lord's day."
Dialecticians reckon amongst the infallible motives of certitude, the
moral motive of analogy or induction, by which we are enabled to
conclude with certainty from the known to the unknown; being absolutely
certain of the meaning of an expression can have only the same meaning
when uttered the ninth time, especially when we know that on the nine
occasions the expressions were inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Nor are the strongest intrinsic grounds wanting to prove that this,
like its sister texts, contains the same meaning. St. John (Apoc. first
chapter, tenth verse) says "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day; "but
he furnishes us the key to this expression, chapter four, first and
second verses: "After this I looked and behold a door opened in heaven."
A voice said to him: "Come up hither, and I will show you the things
which must be hereafter." Let us ascend in spirit with John. Whither? -
through that "door in heaven," to heaven. And what shall we see? - "The
things that must be hereafter," chapter four, first verse. He ascended
in spirit to heaven. He was ordered to write, in full, his vision of
what is to take place antecedent to, and concomitantly with, "the Lord's
day," or the day of judgment; the expression "Lord's day" being confined
in Scripture to the day of judgment exclusively.
We have studiously and accurately collected from the New Testament
every available proof that could be adduced in favor of a law canceling
the Sabbath day of the old law, or one substituting another day for the
Christian dispensation. We have been careful to make the above
distinction, lest it might be advanced that the 3rd (6) Commandment was
abrogated under the New Law. Any such plea has been overruled by the
action of the Methodist Episcopal bishops in their pastoral 1874, and
quoted by the New York Herald of the same date, of the following tenor:
"The Sabbath instituted in the beginning and confirmed again and again
by Moses and the prophets, has never been abrogated. A part of the moral
law, not a part or tittle of its sanctity has been taken away." The
above official pronunciamento has committed that large body of Biblical
Christians to the permanence of the 3rd commandment under the new law.
We again beg to leave to call the special attention of our readers to
the twentieth of "the thirty-nine articles of religion" of the Book of
Common Prayer; "It is not lawful for the church to ordain anything that
is contrary to God's written word."

(6) In the Catholic enumeration, the Sabbath commandment is the third of
the ten commandments. - ED.


CONCLUSION.

We have in this series of articles, taken much pains for the
instruction of our readers to prepare them by presenting a number of
undeniable facts found in the word of God to arrive at a conclusion
absolutely irrefragable. When the Biblical system put in an appearance
in the sixteenth century, it not only seized on the temporal possessions
of the Church, but in its vandalic crusade stripped Christianity, as far
as it could, of all the sacraments instituted by its Founder, of the
holy sacrifice, etc., etc., retaining nothing but the Bible, which its
exponents pronounced their sole teacher in Christian doctrine and
morals. Chief amongst their articles of belief was, and is today, the
permanent necessity of keeping the Sabbath holy. In fact, it has been
for the past 300 years the only article of the Christian belief in which
there has been a plenary consensus of Biblical representatives. The
keeping of the Sabbath constitutes the sum and substance of the Biblical
theory. The pulpits resound weekly with incessant tirades against the
lax manner of keeping the Sabbath in Catholic countries, as contrasted
with the proper, Christian, self-satisfied mode of keeping the day in
Biblical countries. Who can ever forget the virtuous indignation
manifested by the Biblical preachers throughout the length and breadth
of our country, from every Protestant pulpit, as long as yet undecided;
and who does not know today, that one sect, to mark its holy indignation
at the decision, has never yet opened the boxes that contained its
articles at the World's Fair?
These superlatively good and unctuous Christians, by conning over
their Bible carefully, can find their counterpart in a certain class of
unco-good people in the days of the Redeemer, who haunted Him night and
day, distressed beyond measure, and scandalized beyond forbearance,
because He did not keep the Sabbath in as straight-laced manner as
themselves.
They hated Him for using common sense in reference to the day, and He
found no epithets expressive enough of His supreme contempt for their
Pharisaical pride. And it is very probably that the divine mind has not
modified its views today anent the blatant outcry of their followers and
sympathizers at the close of this nineteenth century. But when we add to
all this the fact that whilst the Pharisees of old kept the true
Sabbath, our modern Pharisees, counting on the credulity and simplicity
of their dupes, have never once in their lives kept the true Sabbath
which their divine Master kept to His dying day, and which His apostles
kept, after His example, for thirty years afterward, according to the
Sacred Record.
This most glaring contradiction, involving a deliberate sacrilegious
rejection of a most positive precept, is presented to us today in the
action of the Biblical Christian world. The Bible and the Sabbath
constitute the watchword of Protestantism; but we have demonstrated that
it is the Bible against their Sabbath. We have shown that no greater
contradiction ever existed than their theory and practice. We have
proved that neither their Biblical ancestors nor themselves have ever
kept one Sabbath day in their lives. The Israelites and Seventh-day
Adventists are witnesses of their weekly desecration of the day named by
God so repeatedly, and whilst they have ignored and condemned their
teacher, the Bible, they have adopted a day kept by the Catholic Church.
What Protestant can, after perusing these articles, with a clear
conscience, continue to disobey the command of God, enjoining Saturday
to be kept, which command his teacher, the Bible, from Genesis to
Revelation, records as the will of God?
The history of the world cannot present a more stupid,
self-stultifying specimen of dereliction of principle than this. The
teacher demands emphatically in every page that the law of the Sabbath
be observed every week, by all recognizing it as "the only infallible
teacher," whilst the disciples of that teacher have not once for over
three hundred years observed the divine precept! That immense concourse
of Biblical Christians, the Methodists, have declared that the Sabbath
has never been abrogated, whilst the followers of the Church of England,
together with her daughter, the [pg. 9] Episcopal Church of the United
States, are committed by the twentieth article of religion, already
quoted, to the ordinance that the Church cannot lawfully ordain anything
"contrary to God's written word." God's written word enjoins His worship
to be observed on Saturday absolutely, repeatedly, and most
emphatically, with a most positive threat of death to him who disobeys.
All the Biblical sects occupy the same self-stultifying position which
no explanation can modify, much less justify.
How truly do the words of the Holy Spirit apply to this deplorable
situation! "Iniquitas mentita est sibi" - "Iniquity hath lied to
itself." Proposing to follow the Bible only as teacher, yet before the
world, the sole teacher is ignominiously thrust aside, and the teaching
and practice of the Catholic Church - "the mother of abomination," when
it suits their purpose so to designate her - adopted, despite the most
terrible threats pronounced by God Himself against those who disobey the
command, "Remember to keep holy the Sabbath."
Before closing this series of articles, we beg to call the attention
of our readers once more to our caption, introductory of each; viz.,
1st-The Christian Sabbath, the genuine offspring of the union of the
Holy Spirit with the Catholic Church His spouse. 2nd-The claim of
Protestantism to any part therein proved to be groundless,
self-contradictory, and suicidal.
The first proposition needs little proof. The Catholic Church for
over one thousand years before the existence of a Protestant, by virtue
of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday. We say
by virtue of her divine mission, because He who called Himself the "Lord
of the Sabbath," endowed her with His own power to teach, "he that
heareth you, heareth Me;" commanded all who believe in Him to hear her,
under penalty of being placed with "heathen and publican;" and promised
to be with her to the end of the world. She holds her charter as teacher
from Him - a charter as infallible as perpetual. The Protestant world at
its birth found the Christian Sabbath too strongly entrenched to run
counter to its existence; it was therefore placed under the necessity of
acquiescing in the arrangement, thus implying the Church's right to
change the day, for over three hundred years. The Christian Sabbath is
therefore to this day, the acknowledged offspring of the Catholic Church
as spouse of the Holy Ghost, without a word of remonstrance from the
Protestant world.
Let us now, however, take a glance at our second proposition, with
the Bible alone as the teacher and guide in faith and morals. This
teacher most emphatically forbids any change in the day for paramount
reasons. The command calls for a "perpetual covenant." The day commanded
to be kept by the teacher has never once been kept, thereby developing
an apostasy from an assumedly fixed principle, as self-contradictory,
self-stultifying, and consequently as suicidal as it is within the power
of language to express. Nor are the limits of demoralization yet
reached. Far from it. Their pretense for leaving the bosom of the
Catholic Church was for apostasy from the truth as taught in the written
word. They adopted the written word as their sole teacher, which they
had no sooner done than they abandoned it promptly, as these articles
have abundantly proved; and by a perversity as willful as erroneous,
they accept the teaching of the Catholic Church in direct opposition to
the plain, unvaried, and constant teaching of their sole teacher in the
most essential doctrine of their religion, thereby emphasizing the
situation in what may be aptly designated "a mockery, a delusion, and a
snare."

[EDITORS' NOTE. - It was upon this very point that the Reformation was
condemned by the Council of Trent. The Reformers had constantly charged,
as here stated, that the Catholic Church had "apostatized from the truth
as contained in the written word. "The written word," "The Bible and the
Bible only," "Thus saith the Lord," these were their constant
watchwords; and "the Scripture, as in the written word, the sole
standard of appeal," this was the proclaimed platform of the Reformation
and of Protestantism. "The Scripture and tradition." The Bible as
interpreted by the Church and according to the unanimous consent of the
Fathers," this was the position and claim of the Catholic Church. This
was the main issue in the Council of Trent, which was called especially
to consider the questions that had been raised and forced upon the
attention of Europe by the Reformers. The very first question concerning
faith that was considered by the council was the question involved in
this issue. There was a strong party even of the Catholics within the
council who were in favor of abandoning tradition and adopting the
Scriptures only, as the standard of authority. This view was so
decidedly held in the debates in the council that the pope's legates
actually wrote to him that there was "a strong tendency to set aside
tradition altogether and to make Scripture the sole standard of appeal."
But to do this would manifestly be to go a long way toward justifying
the claims of the Protestants. By this crisis there was developed upon
the ultra-Catholic portion of the council the task of convincing the
others that "Scripture and tradition" were the only sure ground to stand
upon. If this could be done, the council could be carried to issue a
decree condemning the Reformation, otherwise not. The question was
debated day after day, until the council was fairly brought to a
standstill. Finally, after a long and intensive mental strain, the
Archbishop of Reggio came into the council with substantially the
following argument to the party who held for Scripture alone:
"The Protestants claim to stand upon the written word only. They
profess to hold the Scripture alone as the standard of faith. They
justify their revolt by the plea that the Church has apostatized from
the written word and follows tradition. Now the Protestants claim, that
they stand upon the written word only, is not true. Their profession of
holding the Scripture alone as the standard of faith, is false. PROOF:
The written word explicitly enjoins the observance of the seventh day as
the Sabbath. They do not observe the seventh day, but reject it. If they
do truly hold the scripture alone as their standard, they would be
observing the seventh day as is enjoined in the Scripture throughout.
Yet they not only reject the observance of the Sabbath enjoined in the
written word, but they have adopted and do practice the observance of
Sunday, for which they have only the tradition of the Church.
Consequently the claim of 'Scripture alone as the standard,' fails; and
the doctrine of 'Scripture and tradition' as essential, is fully
established, the Protestants themselves being judges."
[The Archbishop of Reggio (Gaspar [Ricciulli] de Fosso) made his
speech at the last opening session of Trent, (17th Session) reconvened
under a new pope (Pius IV), on the 18th of January, 1562 after having
been suspended in 1552. - J. H. Holtzman, Canon and Tradition, published
in Ludwigsburg, Germany, in 1859, page 263, and Archbishop of Reggio's
address in the 17th session of the Council of Trent, Jan. 18, 1562, in
Mansi SC, Vol. 33, cols. 529, 530. Latin.]

There was no getting around this, for the Protestants' own statement
of faith - the Augsburg Confession, 1530 - had clearly admitted that
"the observation of the Lord's day" had been appointed by "the Church"
only.
The argument was hailed in the council as of Inspiration only; the
party for "Scripture alone," surrendered; and the council at once
unanimously condemned Protestantism and the whole Reformation as only an
unwarranted revolt from the communion and authority of the Catholic
Church; and proceeded, April 8, 1546, "to the promulgation of two
decrees, the first of which, enacts under anathema, that Scripture and
tradition are to be received and venerated equally, and that the
deutero-canonical [the apocryphal] books are part of the canon of
Scripture. The second decree declares the Vulgate to be the sole
authentic and standard Latin version, and gives it such authority as to
supersede the original texts; forbids the interpretation of Scripture
contrary to the sense received by the Church, 'or even contrary to the
unanimous consent of the Fathers,'" etc. (7)
This was the inconsistency of the Protestant practice with the
Protestant profession that gave to the Catholic Church her long-sought
and anxiously desired ground upon which to condemn Protestantism and the
whole Reformation movement as only a selfishly ambitious rebellion
against the Church authority. And in this vital controversy the key, the
chiefest and culminative expression, of the Protestant inconsistency was
in the rejection of the Sabbath of the Lord, the seventh day, enjoined
in the Scriptures, and the adoption and observance of the Sunday as
enjoined by the Catholic Church.
And this is today the position of the respective parties to this
controversy. Today, as this document shows, this is the vital issue upon
which the Catholic Church arraigns Protestantism, and upon which she
condemns the course of popular Protestantism as being "indefensible",
self-contradictory, and suicidal." What will these Protestants, what
will this Protestantism, do?]

(7) See the proceedings of the Council; Augsburg Confession; and
Encyclopaedia Britannica, article "Trent, Council of."


Should any of the Rev. Parsons, who are habituated to howl so
vociferously over every real or assumed desecration of that pious fraud,
the Bible Sabbath, think well of entering a protest against our logical
and scriptural dissection of their mongrel pet, we can promise them that
any reasonable attempt on their part to gather up the "disjecta membra"
of the hybrid, and to restore to it a galvanized existence, will be met
with genuine cordiality and respectful consideration on our part. But we
can assure our readers that we know these reverend howlers too well to
expect a solitary bark from them in this instance.
And they know us too well to subject themselves to the mortification
which a further dissection of this anti-scriptural question would
necessarily entail. Their policy now is to "lay low," and they are sure
to adopt it.


See Korsman's futile arguments about this here:
http://snipurl.com/NotOnKorsmansSite
Whazit Tooyah
2006-08-06 03:51:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Korsman
x-no-archive: yes
© 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no portion of this
article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of
the
Post by Stephen Korsman
author
That is so true..which is why the argument "it isnt in the bible"
is
Post by Stephen Korsman
not a valid point.
In this case, you are correct. However, in many cases, the point
IS
Post by Stephen Korsman
valid.
and in many cases where a specific issue is not mentioned, enough
similar teaching is given that we can draw a fairly specific
conclusion.
What too many do NOT understand is that the Bible is DELIBERATELY
silent on MANY modern issues meaning that God grants many more
freedom
Post by Stephen Korsman
than they're comfortable with.
For that reason, such "leadership" as that found within the
Vatican,
Post by Stephen Korsman
and such leadership as that found in Calvinism and the "Reformed"
churches go to great lengths to "fill in the gaps" God left, and
"correct" His divine omissions.
THen, Why does Rome claim to have changed the Sabbath sanctification
to
Post by Stephen Korsman
Sunday, when that's not a command of God, or His Son, nor found
anywhere in the bible, and fills in the gaps with their traditions
and
Post by Stephen Korsman
commands and dogma, and why do you a Baptist obey them?
Simply because there is biblical evidence that the early Christians
kept
Post by Stephen Korsman
Sunday, that the Sabbath is not meant for Christians, and the early
Christians wrote in other texts that they kept Sunday.
Your claims about Rome's claims do not match up with Rome's claims.
http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/post/index/238/I-B-Wonderin
http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/post/index/239/I-B-Wondering-2
Korsman is a deceiver...
http://snipurl.com/KorsmansExpose
Rome has two early witnesses to Sunday keeping, one from Rome and one
from Alexandria, (and another, Barnabus, which they themselves claim was
in error and his writings uninspired, although his writing wqere read in
Alexandria as scripture... --And as I quoted previously Socrates
Scholasticus, a church historian of the fifth century A.D., wrote, "For
although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred
mysteries [the Lord's Supper] on the sabbath of every week, yet the
Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient
tradition, have ceased to do this."[2] And Sozomen, a contemporary of
Socrates, wrote, "The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere,
assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the
week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria."[
neither of those witnesses ever claimed that Christ nor the apostles
changed the Sabbath, nor sanctified Sunday, and those two churches were
unique at that time, as the rest of the Christian world kept the
seventh-day Sabbath. As Josephus the Jewish Historian recorded:"There is
no city anywhere of the Greeks nor of the barbarians, to which the
observance of the seventh day, in which we rest, has not reached"
(Against Apion 2.282 [Loeb, 1:404-71).
Josephus, in the main, follows the Biblical narrative, giving the word
"Sabbath" the meaning "rest" ("Ant." i. 1, § 1), and controverting the
stupid etymology of the name upheld by Apion, according to whom the Jews
were forced to observe the Sabbath by the fact of their being afflicted
with bubonic boils known in Egyptian by a word similar to the Hebrew
word "sabbath" ("Contra Ap." ii., § 2). Moreover, his descriptions of
Sabbath celebration do not differ from the Biblical. That the beginning
and end of the Sabbath were announced by trumpet-blasts ("B. J." iv. 9,
§ 12) is shown by the Mishnah (Suk. v. 5).
Josephus makes much of the spread of Sabbath observance in
non-Palestinian cities and among non-Jews ("Contra Ap." ii., § 39; comp.
Philo, "De Vita Moysis," ii. 137 [ed. Mangey]). That he does not
exaggerate is apparent from the comments of Roman writers on the Jewish
Sabbath. Horace, in his "Satires" (i. 9, 69), speaks of "tricesima
Sabbata," which certainly does not refer to a Sabbath so numbered by the
Jews. Juvenal ("Satires," xiv. 96-106), Persius (v. 179-184), Martial
(iv. 4, 7), and Seneca (Augustine, "De Civitate Dei," vi. 11) also refer
to the Sabbath. In the Maccabean struggle the observance of the Sabbath
came to have special significance as distinguishing the faithful from
the half-hearted; but Josephus confirms I Macc. ii. 39-41, where the
faithful, under Mattathias, decided to resist if attacked on the
Sabbath, and not to permit themselves to be destroyed for the sake of
literal obedience to the Sabbath law (comp. "Ant." xii. 6, § 2). He
mentions instances in which the Jews were taken advantage of on the
Sabbath-day-for example, by Ptolemy Lagi ("Ant." xii. 1; xviii. 9, § 2).
Still, according to Josephus, the Jews carried on offensive warfare on
the Sabbath ("B. J." ii. 19, § 2). Titus was outwitted by the plea that
it was unlawful for Jews to treat of peace on the seventh day (ib. iv.
2, § 3). Josephus also publishes decrees exempting Jews from military
service on the Sabbath, which exemption gave rise to persecutions under
Tiberius ("Ant." xiv. 10, § 12 et seq.). The Essenes are referred to as
very rigorous observers of the Sabbath ("B. J." ii. 8, § 9).
Saturday is called "the sacred day" by Tibullus (Tibullus 1.3*.18
[Loeb, 206-7]; cf. more authorities in Eusebius, Preparation for the
Gospel 13.13.677c [ed. E.H. Gifford], 2:732).
Clement of Alexandria: "Not only the Hebrews, but also the Greeks hold
each seventh day to be sacred" (alla kai ten hebdomin hieran, ou monon
hoi Hebraioi, alla kai hoi HellEnes isasi, Stroniata 5.14 [ANF 2:469; PG
9.161-62]). He proves this from Hesiod, Homer, Linus and Callimachus, by
whom the seventh day (hebdomz) is called the "sacred day" (hieron
Ernar). By Philo, it is called the public feast" (heorte pandilmos)
belonging to all the Gentiles equally (Flaccus 14 [116] [Loeb,
9:366-67]).
Rome never claimed that the apostles changed the Sabbath till 1000 and
500 plus years later at Trent. Korsman can't prove they did, for it's
not biblical, nor established historically, nor by Rome's early claims,
So he's irate.
So, What is Korsman really upset about, and what started this problem he
has here?
Rome lies, The Apostles changed nothing, and he can't prove they did, as
he claims, according to Rome's own history, teaching and doctrines which
he is claiming to uphold and defend....
Here is Rome rebutting Korsman's claims.
http://snipurl.com/RomesClaims
ROME'S CHALLENGE
ROFLMAO Rome's Challenge??
I checked out the site. The site is written by a Seventh-day Adventist.
Surprise! Surprise! Surprise! Definitely no bias there, only the truth as
he sees and compiles it. The author/compiler of the document is in all
likelihood a sincere Christian, but his views are tainted by lies and biases
of his church.
--
WT

By this all men will know that you are My disciples,
if you have love for one another
I. B. Wonderin
2006-08-06 16:19:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Rome has two early witnesses to Sunday keeping, one from Rome and one
from Alexandria, (and another, Barnabus, which they themselves claim was
in error and his writings uninspired, although his writing wqere read in
Alexandria as scripture... --And as I quoted previously Socrates
Scholasticus, a church historian of the fifth century A.D., wrote, "For
although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred
mysteries [the Lord's Supper] on the sabbath of every week, yet the
Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient
tradition, have ceased to do this."[2] And Sozomen, a contemporary of
Socrates, wrote, "The people of Constantinople, and almost
everywhere,
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the
week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria."[
neither of those witnesses ever claimed that Christ nor the apostles
changed the Sabbath, nor sanctified Sunday, and those two churches were
unique at that time, as the rest of the Christian world kept the
seventh-day Sabbath. As Josephus the Jewish Historian
recorded:"There is
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
no city anywhere of the Greeks nor of the barbarians, to which the
observance of the seventh day, in which we rest, has not reached"
(Against Apion 2.282 [Loeb, 1:404-71).
(snipped some)
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Rome never claimed that the apostles changed the Sabbath till 1000 and
500 plus years later at Trent. Korsman can't prove they did, for it's
not biblical, nor established historically, nor by Rome's early claims,
So he's irate.
So, What is Korsman really upset about, and what started this problem he
has here?
Rome lies, The Apostles changed nothing, and he can't prove they did, as
he claims, according to Rome's own history, teaching and doctrines which
he is claiming to uphold and defend....
Here is Rome rebutting Korsman's claims.
http://snipurl.com/RomesClaims
ROME'S CHALLENGE
ROFLMAO Rome's Challenge??
Real intelligent rebuttal..
Post by Whazit Tooyah
I checked out the site. The site is written by a Seventh-day
Adventist.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Surprise! Surprise! Surprise! Definitely no bias there, only the truth as
he sees and compiles it. The author/compiler of the document is in all
likelihood a sincere Christian, but his views are tainted by lies and biases
of his church.
--
To the contrary, it is your reply here that appears to be tainted by
lies and biases...

IF you'd really checked it out you would know that your brother Korsman
already tried arguing all that, even claiming the articles were
forgeries, and SDA lies, then when he found out they weren't, next
claiming they weren't official, along with every other Catholic
reference which stated the same things, .He failed miserably, here is
the link again- you must have accidentally snipped out from the previous
post, where he is arguing with the website owner
:http://snipurl.com/NotOnKorsmansSite


Further evidence you never checked it out as you claim is that: yes the
site belongs to an SDA, but it's not his views or his words, or bias
written on that page. The author of the document is the editor of the
Catholic Mirror. All the SDA website owner did was scan and publish
the series of articles which were first written by the archdioses of
Baltimore and published in the Catholic Mirror, the official voice of
the Vatican in America.

SDA's (via IRLA- International Religious Liberty Association)did
afterwords,republish them together in a pamphlet. BUT far from the
catholic 's having a problem with that; Because of the high demand for
copies, the Catholic Mirror itself republished the four editorials in a
book format and titled it "the christian Sabbath" with Cardinal
Gibbon's, the archbishop of baltimore's imprimitur, here's what their
added preface says about that:


PREFACE

The contents of this pamphlet embrace four editorials which appeared
in the columns of the CATHOLIC MIRROR in four successive issues of the
paper, viz: on the 3rd, 9th, 16th and 23d of September, 1893. The
unprecedented demand for copies of the above dates soon exhausted the
issues, whilst to meet all further requests a reprint of them for the
benefit of subscribers, availing ourselves of the opportunity to furnish
them to all applicants in the present form.
A reprint of these articles has been issued by the International
Religious Liberty Association, in Michigan, in a pamphlet of thirty-two
pages, available in London, England; Australia; Cape Town, Africa;
Toronto, Ontario; and in Michigan, New York, California and Tennessee.
Whilst the Protestant world evinces so profound an interest in these
Catholic productions, we feel that the Catholics of the country should
have within their reach arguments unanswerable by the opponents of our
religion, placing it in an impregnable position, whilst they expose the
utterly indefensible condition to which they have reduced Protestantism.
With this view of the matter, we respectfully place it pages before our
readers, anticipating both profit and pleasure to them in their perusal.

THE CATHOLIC MIRROR, PUBLISHERS.
-----------------------------


:
Here's the entire booklet The Christian Sabbath, as published by the
Catholic Mirror, fifth edition (10.5 Megabytes, Adobe .pdf format),
color scans 300 dpi
http://biblelight.net/Sources/Christian-Sabbath.pdf
Maud Gonne
2006-08-06 17:21:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Rome has two early witnesses to Sunday keeping, one from Rome and
one
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
from Alexandria, (and another, Barnabus, which they themselves claim
was
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
in error and his writings uninspired, although his writing wqere
read in
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Alexandria as scripture... --And as I quoted previously Socrates
Scholasticus, a church historian of the fifth century A.D., wrote,
"For
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the
sacred
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
mysteries [the Lord's Supper] on the sabbath of every week, yet the
Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient
tradition, have ceased to do this."[2] And Sozomen, a contemporary
of
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Socrates, wrote, "The people of Constantinople, and almost
everywhere,
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the
week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria."[
neither of those witnesses ever claimed that Christ nor the apostles
changed the Sabbath, nor sanctified Sunday, and those two churches
were
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
unique at that time, as the rest of the Christian world kept the
seventh-day Sabbath. As Josephus the Jewish Historian
recorded:"There is
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
no city anywhere of the Greeks nor of the barbarians, to which the
observance of the seventh day, in which we rest, has not reached"
(Against Apion 2.282 [Loeb, 1:404-71).
(snipped some)
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Rome never claimed that the apostles changed the Sabbath till 1000
and
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
500 plus years later at Trent. Korsman can't prove they did, for
it's
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
not biblical, nor established historically, nor by Rome's early
claims,
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
So he's irate.
So, What is Korsman really upset about, and what started this
problem he
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
has here?
Rome lies, The Apostles changed nothing, and he can't prove they
did, as
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
he claims, according to Rome's own history, teaching and doctrines
which
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
he is claiming to uphold and defend....
Here is Rome rebutting Korsman's claims.
http://snipurl.com/RomesClaims
ROME'S CHALLENGE
ROFLMAO Rome's Challenge??
Real intelligent rebuttal..
Post by Whazit Tooyah
I checked out the site. The site is written by a Seventh-day
Adventist.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Surprise! Surprise! Surprise! Definitely no bias there, only the
truth as
Post by Whazit Tooyah
he sees and compiles it. The author/compiler of the document is in
all
Post by Whazit Tooyah
likelihood a sincere Christian, but his views are tainted by lies and
biases
Post by Whazit Tooyah
of his church.
--
To the contrary, it is your reply here that appears to be tainted by
lies and biases...
IF you'd really checked it out you would know that your brother Korsman
already tried arguing all that, even claiming the articles were
forgeries, and SDA lies, then when he found out they weren't, next
claiming they weren't official, along with every other Catholic
reference which stated the same things, .He failed miserably, here is
the link again- you must have accidentally snipped out from the previous
post, where he is arguing with the website owner
:http://snipurl.com/NotOnKorsmansSite
Further evidence you never checked it out as you claim is that: yes the
site belongs to an SDA, but it's not his views or his words, or bias
written on that page. The author of the document is the editor of the
Catholic Mirror. All the SDA website owner did was scan and publish
the series of articles which were first written by the archdioses of
Baltimore and published in the Catholic Mirror, the official voice of
the Vatican in America.
"The Catholic Mirror is the diocese’s primary communication vehicle
dedicated to spreading the Gospel, the bishop’s message and news about
people and events around southwest Iowa to Catholics on a monthly basis. The
newspaper is mailed directly to the homes of more than 34,000 registered
Catholics in central and southwest Iowa."
(from the Catholic Mirror's Website)
It is not the official voice of Catholicism in America.
The Vatican itself is the official voice of all Catholicism as it is a
Universal Church. It's news service is Zenit.org.

I do not know why I bother answering the clamis of a man who supports the
North Koreans, Iranians and Palesninians against America.

I hope that the blood of our servicemen never washes off of your hands. My
son is leaving shortly attatched to the 82nd Airborne to keep you safe from
terrorists so that you can exercise your constitutional right to give
comfort to those slaughtering those fighting the war on terror.
--
Maud Gonne
One of the Lesbian Immortals
We Never Die
"They may batter us to pieces but they will never extinguish our hope."
I. B. Wonderin
2006-08-07 09:47:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Rome has two early witnesses to Sunday keeping, one from Rome and
one
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
from Alexandria, (and another, Barnabus, which they themselves claim
was
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
in error and his writings uninspired, although his writing wqere
read in
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Alexandria as scripture... --And as I quoted previously
Socrates
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Scholasticus, a church historian of the fifth century A.D., wrote,
"For
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the
sacred
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
mysteries [the Lord's Supper] on the sabbath of every week, yet the
Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient
tradition, have ceased to do this."[2] And Sozomen, a
contemporary
Post by I. B. Wonderin
of
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Socrates, wrote, "The people of Constantinople, and almost
everywhere,
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the
week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria."[
neither of those witnesses ever claimed that Christ nor the apostles
changed the Sabbath, nor sanctified Sunday, and those two churches
were
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
unique at that time, as the rest of the Christian world kept the
seventh-day Sabbath. As Josephus the Jewish Historian
recorded:"There is
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
no city anywhere of the Greeks nor of the barbarians, to which the
observance of the seventh day, in which we rest, has not
reached"
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
(Against Apion 2.282 [Loeb, 1:404-71).
(snipped some)
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Rome never claimed that the apostles changed the Sabbath till 1000
and
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
500 plus years later at Trent. Korsman can't prove they did, for
it's
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
not biblical, nor established historically, nor by Rome's early
claims,
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
So he's irate.
So, What is Korsman really upset about, and what started this
problem he
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
has here?
Rome lies, The Apostles changed nothing, and he can't prove they
did, as
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
he claims, according to Rome's own history, teaching and
doctrines
Post by I. B. Wonderin
which
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
he is claiming to uphold and defend....
Here is Rome rebutting Korsman's claims.
http://snipurl.com/RomesClaims
ROME'S CHALLENGE
ROFLMAO Rome's Challenge??
Real intelligent rebuttal..
Post by Whazit Tooyah
I checked out the site. The site is written by a Seventh-day
Adventist.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Surprise! Surprise! Surprise! Definitely no bias there, only the
truth as
Post by Whazit Tooyah
he sees and compiles it. The author/compiler of the document is in
all
Post by Whazit Tooyah
likelihood a sincere Christian, but his views are tainted by lies and
biases
Post by Whazit Tooyah
of his church.
--
To the contrary, it is your reply here that appears to be tainted by
lies and biases...
IF you'd really checked it out you would know that your brother Korsman
already tried arguing all that, even claiming the articles were
forgeries, and SDA lies, then when he found out they weren't, next
claiming they weren't official, along with every other Catholic
reference which stated the same things, .He failed miserably, here is
the link again- you must have accidentally snipped out from the previous
post, where he is arguing with the website owner
:http://snipurl.com/NotOnKorsmansSite
Further evidence you never checked it out as you claim is that: yes the
site belongs to an SDA, but it's not his views or his words, or bias
written on that page. The author of the document is the editor of the
Catholic Mirror. All the SDA website owner did was scan and publish
the series of articles which were first written by the archdioses of
Baltimore and published in the Catholic Mirror, the official voice of
the Vatican in America.
"The Catholic Mirror is the diocese's primary communication vehicle
dedicated to spreading the Gospel, the bishop's message and news about
people and events around southwest Iowa to Catholics on a monthly basis. The
newspaper is mailed directly to the homes of more than 34,000
registered
Catholics in central and southwest Iowa."
(from the Catholic Mirror's Website)
It is not the official voice of Catholicism in America.
The Vatican itself is the official voice of all Catholicism as it is a
Universal Church. It's news service is Zenit.org.
Iowa? Hellooo? Did ya happen to notice we're talking about different
times (centuries) different Catholic Mirrors and different States
even???

At that time the Arch Diocese of Baltimore Maryland, and it's Church was
called the Mother Church in America. There was no zenit, there was not
even any kind of diplomatic ties between the U.S. and the Vatican, the
U.S having broke all ties, and Congress in 1867 refusing all funding to
even send a representative to the Vatican in wake of the Lincoln
assassination, which continued until Ronald Reagan changed that.. During
that time the Vatican had to speak through it's Cardinal here. The
Vatican was not recognized as a State and the Pope was not allowed
anywhere on American soil. This was shortly after Capt Gwin the skipper
of the U.S.S Constitution was courtmartialed for allowing the Pope on
board and giving him a 21 gun salute while in Sicilly as he was given
strict orders not to do so as according to admiralty law, it was
considered extraterritorial U.S. soil.
I do not know why I bother answering the clamis of a man who supports the
North Koreans, Iranians and Palesninians against America.
I don't know why you bother to keep lying like this either...
I hope that the blood of our servicemen never washes off of your hands. My
son is leaving shortly attatched to the 82nd Airborne to keep you safe from
terrorists so that you can exercise your constitutional right to give
comfort to those slaughtering those fighting the war on terror.
--
Don't be stupid. If he exists and you care about him you might want to
stop behaving irresponsibly and shut up about him and not be giving out
info about him on the internet, as families members have been strongly
warned about that...
Maud Gonne
One of the Lesbian Immortals
We Never Die
"They may batter us to pieces but they will never extinguish our hope."
Stephen Korsman
2006-08-07 23:19:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Rome has two early witnesses to Sunday keeping, one from Rome
and
Post by I. B. Wonderin
one
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
from Alexandria, (and another, Barnabus, which they themselves
claim
Post by I. B. Wonderin
was
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
in error and his writings uninspired, although his writing wqere
read in
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Alexandria as scripture... --And as I quoted previously
Socrates
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Scholasticus, a church historian of the fifth century A.D.,
wrote,
Post by I. B. Wonderin
"For
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the
sacred
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
mysteries [the Lord's Supper] on the sabbath of every week, yet
the
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient
tradition, have ceased to do this."[2] And Sozomen, a
contemporary
Post by I. B. Wonderin
of
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Socrates, wrote, "The people of Constantinople, and almost
everywhere,
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of
the
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria."[
neither of those witnesses ever claimed that Christ nor the
apostles
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
changed the Sabbath, nor sanctified Sunday, and those two
churches
Post by I. B. Wonderin
were
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
unique at that time, as the rest of the Christian world kept the
seventh-day Sabbath. As Josephus the Jewish Historian
recorded:"There is
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
no city anywhere of the Greeks nor of the barbarians, to which
the
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
observance of the seventh day, in which we rest, has not
reached"
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
(Against Apion 2.282 [Loeb, 1:404-71).
(snipped some)
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Rome never claimed that the apostles changed the Sabbath till
1000
Post by I. B. Wonderin
and
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
500 plus years later at Trent. Korsman can't prove they did, for
it's
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
not biblical, nor established historically, nor by Rome's early
claims,
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
So he's irate.
So, What is Korsman really upset about, and what started this
problem he
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
has here?
Rome lies, The Apostles changed nothing, and he can't prove they
did, as
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
he claims, according to Rome's own history, teaching and
doctrines
Post by I. B. Wonderin
which
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
he is claiming to uphold and defend....
Here is Rome rebutting Korsman's claims.
http://snipurl.com/RomesClaims
ROME'S CHALLENGE
ROFLMAO Rome's Challenge??
Real intelligent rebuttal..
Post by Whazit Tooyah
I checked out the site. The site is written by a Seventh-day
Adventist.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Surprise! Surprise! Surprise! Definitely no bias there, only the
truth as
Post by Whazit Tooyah
he sees and compiles it. The author/compiler of the document is
in
Post by I. B. Wonderin
all
Post by Whazit Tooyah
likelihood a sincere Christian, but his views are tainted by lies
and
Post by I. B. Wonderin
biases
Post by Whazit Tooyah
of his church.
--
To the contrary, it is your reply here that appears to be tainted by
lies and biases...
IF you'd really checked it out you would know that your brother
Korsman
Post by I. B. Wonderin
already tried arguing all that, even claiming the articles were
forgeries, and SDA lies, then when he found out they weren't, next
claiming they weren't official, along with every other Catholic
reference which stated the same things, .He failed miserably, here
is
Post by I. B. Wonderin
the link again- you must have accidentally snipped out from the
previous
Post by I. B. Wonderin
post, where he is arguing with the website owner
:http://snipurl.com/NotOnKorsmansSite
Further evidence you never checked it out as you claim is that: yes
the
Post by I. B. Wonderin
site belongs to an SDA, but it's not his views or his words, or bias
written on that page. The author of the document is the editor of
the
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Catholic Mirror. All the SDA website owner did was scan and
publish
Post by I. B. Wonderin
the series of articles which were first written by the archdioses of
Baltimore and published in the Catholic Mirror, the official voice
of
Post by I. B. Wonderin
the Vatican in America.
"The Catholic Mirror is the diocese's primary communication vehicle
dedicated to spreading the Gospel, the bishop's message and news about
people and events around southwest Iowa to Catholics on a monthly
basis. The
newspaper is mailed directly to the homes of more than 34,000
registered
Catholics in central and southwest Iowa."
(from the Catholic Mirror's Website)
It is not the official voice of Catholicism in America.
The Vatican itself is the official voice of all Catholicism as it is a
Universal Church. It's news service is Zenit.org.
Iowa? Hellooo? Did ya happen to notice we're talking about different
times (centuries) different Catholic Mirrors and different States
even???
Still doesn't make a newspaper the official voice of the Vatican in the USA.

Even Zenit is not that - in terms of proclaiming official teaching. No
newspaper is.
Post by I. B. Wonderin
I don't know why you bother to keep lying like this either...
Precisely. Why do you? The truth won't work ... so lie instead?

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

IC | XC
---------
NI | KA

add an s before .co.za
Whazit Tooyah
2006-08-06 20:36:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Rome has two early witnesses to Sunday keeping, one from Rome and
one
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
from Alexandria, (and another, Barnabus, which they themselves claim
was
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
in error and his writings uninspired, although his writing wqere
read in
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Alexandria as scripture... --And as I quoted previously Socrates
Scholasticus, a church historian of the fifth century A.D., wrote,
"For
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the
sacred
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
mysteries [the Lord's Supper] on the sabbath of every week, yet the
Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient
tradition, have ceased to do this."[2] And Sozomen, a contemporary
of
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Socrates, wrote, "The people of Constantinople, and almost
everywhere,
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the
week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria."[
neither of those witnesses ever claimed that Christ nor the apostles
changed the Sabbath, nor sanctified Sunday, and those two churches
were
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
unique at that time, as the rest of the Christian world kept the
seventh-day Sabbath. As Josephus the Jewish Historian
recorded:"There is
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
no city anywhere of the Greeks nor of the barbarians, to which the
observance of the seventh day, in which we rest, has not reached"
(Against Apion 2.282 [Loeb, 1:404-71).
(snipped some)
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Rome never claimed that the apostles changed the Sabbath till 1000
and
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
500 plus years later at Trent. Korsman can't prove they did, for
it's
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
not biblical, nor established historically, nor by Rome's early
claims,
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
So he's irate.
So, What is Korsman really upset about, and what started this
problem he
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
has here?
Rome lies, The Apostles changed nothing, and he can't prove they
did, as
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
he claims, according to Rome's own history, teaching and doctrines
which
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
he is claiming to uphold and defend....
Here is Rome rebutting Korsman's claims.
http://snipurl.com/RomesClaims
ROME'S CHALLENGE
ROFLMAO Rome's Challenge??
Real intelligent rebuttal..
I am still ROFLMAO over this. You find a document that was written by a
Catholic Cardinal and assume that he speaks for all of Catholicism. When
someone finds a heretical quote from some SDA of the same era you would
claim that he wasn't speaking for the church even though he may have been a
district conference president. One can find all kinds of rubbish on the net
from the early founders of Adventism including EGW.
Secondly, who gives a rats rear end what an RCC cardinal may have written
100+ years ago. He was just as much in error then as he is now. The only
churches that care about the Sabbath are the 7th day zealots. Many of them
have replaced allegiance to Jesus with allegiance to the Sabbath and are
making the Sabbath their idol. It seems that only you and Catholics give an
RCC cardinal any authority.
--
WT

By this all men will know that you are My disciples,
if you have love for one another
I. B. Wonderin
2006-08-06 22:16:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Rome has two early witnesses to Sunday keeping, one from Rome and
one
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
from Alexandria, (and another, Barnabus, which they themselves claim
was
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
in error and his writings uninspired, although his writing wqere
read in
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Alexandria as scripture... --And as I quoted previously Socrates
Scholasticus, a church historian of the fifth century A.D., wrote,
"For
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the
sacred
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
mysteries [the Lord's Supper] on the sabbath of every week, yet the
Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient
tradition, have ceased to do this."[2] And Sozomen, a
contemporary
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
of
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Socrates, wrote, "The people of Constantinople, and almost
everywhere,
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the
week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria."[
neither of those witnesses ever claimed that Christ nor the apostles
changed the Sabbath, nor sanctified Sunday, and those two
churches
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
were
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
unique at that time, as the rest of the Christian world kept the
seventh-day Sabbath. As Josephus the Jewish Historian
recorded:"There is
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
no city anywhere of the Greeks nor of the barbarians, to which the
observance of the seventh day, in which we rest, has not reached"
(Against Apion 2.282 [Loeb, 1:404-71).
(snipped some)
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Rome never claimed that the apostles changed the Sabbath till 1000
and
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
500 plus years later at Trent. Korsman can't prove they did, for
it's
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
not biblical, nor established historically, nor by Rome's early
claims,
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
So he's irate.
So, What is Korsman really upset about, and what started this
problem he
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
has here?
Rome lies, The Apostles changed nothing, and he can't prove they
did, as
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
he claims, according to Rome's own history, teaching and
doctrines
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
which
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
he is claiming to uphold and defend....
Here is Rome rebutting Korsman's claims.
http://snipurl.com/RomesClaims
ROME'S CHALLENGE
ROFLMAO Rome's Challenge??
Real intelligent rebuttal..
I am still ROFLMAO over this. You find a document that was written by a
Catholic Cardinal and assume that he speaks for all of Catholicism.
When
Post by Whazit Tooyah
someone finds a heretical quote from some SDA of the same era you would
claim that he wasn't speaking for the church even though he may have been a
district conference president. One can find all kinds of rubbish on the net
from the early founders of Adventism including EGW.
Secondly, who gives a rats rear end what an RCC cardinal may have written
100+ years ago. He was just as much in error then as he is now. The only
churches that care about the Sabbath are the 7th day zealots. Many of them
have replaced allegiance to Jesus with allegiance to the Sabbath and are
making the Sabbath their idol. It seems that only you and Catholics give an
RCC cardinal any authority.
--
WT
LOL back at you. No one originally posted to you about any of this... IF
you don't give a rat's rear end about any of this as you now claim, why
did you come sticking your big head into the dialog of others (again),
and claiming you'd checked it all out and it was sda lies and bias, and
now pretend you never said anything so silly?

Don't you have better things to do? Why bother to constantly fight about
the Sabbath and argue with SDA's and falsely accuse them of making it an
idol, when you claim you don't care about it, and you fail to prove
anything you claim anyway?
Whazit Tooyah
2006-08-07 05:41:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Rome has two early witnesses to Sunday keeping, one from Rome and
one
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
from Alexandria, (and another, Barnabus, which they themselves
claim
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
was
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
in error and his writings uninspired, although his writing wqere
read in
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Alexandria as scripture... --And as I quoted previously Socrates
Scholasticus, a church historian of the fifth century A.D.,
wrote,
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
"For
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the
sacred
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
mysteries [the Lord's Supper] on the sabbath of every week, yet
the
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient
tradition, have ceased to do this."[2] And Sozomen, a
contemporary
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
of
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Socrates, wrote, "The people of Constantinople, and almost
everywhere,
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of
the
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria."[
neither of those witnesses ever claimed that Christ nor the
apostles
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
changed the Sabbath, nor sanctified Sunday, and those two
churches
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
were
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
unique at that time, as the rest of the Christian world kept the
seventh-day Sabbath. As Josephus the Jewish Historian
recorded:"There is
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
no city anywhere of the Greeks nor of the barbarians, to which
the
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
observance of the seventh day, in which we rest, has not reached"
(Against Apion 2.282 [Loeb, 1:404-71).
(snipped some)
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Rome never claimed that the apostles changed the Sabbath till
1000
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
and
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
500 plus years later at Trent. Korsman can't prove they did, for
it's
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
not biblical, nor established historically, nor by Rome's early
claims,
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
So he's irate.
So, What is Korsman really upset about, and what started this
problem he
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
has here?
Rome lies, The Apostles changed nothing, and he can't prove they
did, as
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
he claims, according to Rome's own history, teaching and
doctrines
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
which
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
he is claiming to uphold and defend....
Here is Rome rebutting Korsman's claims.
http://snipurl.com/RomesClaims
ROME'S CHALLENGE
ROFLMAO Rome's Challenge??
Real intelligent rebuttal..
I am still ROFLMAO over this. You find a document that was written by
a
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Catholic Cardinal and assume that he speaks for all of Catholicism.
When
Post by Whazit Tooyah
someone finds a heretical quote from some SDA of the same era you
would
Post by Whazit Tooyah
claim that he wasn't speaking for the church even though he may have
been a
Post by Whazit Tooyah
district conference president. One can find all kinds of rubbish on
the net
Post by Whazit Tooyah
from the early founders of Adventism including EGW.
Secondly, who gives a rats rear end what an RCC cardinal may have
written
Post by Whazit Tooyah
100+ years ago. He was just as much in error then as he is now. The
only
Post by Whazit Tooyah
churches that care about the Sabbath are the 7th day zealots. Many of
them
Post by Whazit Tooyah
have replaced allegiance to Jesus with allegiance to the Sabbath and
are
Post by Whazit Tooyah
making the Sabbath their idol. It seems that only you and Catholics
give an
Post by Whazit Tooyah
RCC cardinal any authority.
--
WT
LOL back at you. No one originally posted to you about any of this... IF
you don't give a rat's rear end about any of this as you now claim, why
did you come sticking your big head into the dialog of others (again),
and claiming you'd checked it all out and it was sda lies and bias, and
now pretend you never said anything so silly?
Don't you have better things to do? Why bother to constantly fight about
the Sabbath and argue with SDA's and falsely accuse them of making it an
idol, when you claim you don't care about it, and you fail to prove
anything you claim anyway?
IF YOU WANT TO HAVE A PRIVATE DEBATE, DO IT BY E-MAIL, NOT IN A PUBLIC
FORUM. Did I say that loud enough for you or do I need to repeat it? This
isn't I. B. Wonderin's private blog.
--
WT
Stephen Korsman
2006-08-07 23:21:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Rome has two early witnesses to Sunday keeping, one from Rome and
one
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
from Alexandria, (and another, Barnabus, which they themselves
claim
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
was
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
in error and his writings uninspired, although his writing wqere
read in
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Alexandria as scripture... --And as I quoted previously Socrates
Scholasticus, a church historian of the fifth century A.D.,
wrote,
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
"For
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the
sacred
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
mysteries [the Lord's Supper] on the sabbath of every week, yet
the
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient
tradition, have ceased to do this."[2] And Sozomen, a
contemporary
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
of
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Socrates, wrote, "The people of Constantinople, and almost
everywhere,
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of
the
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria."[
neither of those witnesses ever claimed that Christ nor the
apostles
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
changed the Sabbath, nor sanctified Sunday, and those two
churches
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
were
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
unique at that time, as the rest of the Christian world kept the
seventh-day Sabbath. As Josephus the Jewish Historian
recorded:"There is
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
no city anywhere of the Greeks nor of the barbarians, to which
the
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
observance of the seventh day, in which we rest, has not reached"
(Against Apion 2.282 [Loeb, 1:404-71).
(snipped some)
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Rome never claimed that the apostles changed the Sabbath till
1000
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
and
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
500 plus years later at Trent. Korsman can't prove they did, for
it's
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
not biblical, nor established historically, nor by Rome's early
claims,
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
So he's irate.
So, What is Korsman really upset about, and what started this
problem he
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
has here?
Rome lies, The Apostles changed nothing, and he can't prove they
did, as
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
he claims, according to Rome's own history, teaching and
doctrines
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
which
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
he is claiming to uphold and defend....
Here is Rome rebutting Korsman's claims.
http://snipurl.com/RomesClaims
ROME'S CHALLENGE
ROFLMAO Rome's Challenge??
Real intelligent rebuttal..
I am still ROFLMAO over this. You find a document that was written by
a
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Catholic Cardinal and assume that he speaks for all of Catholicism.
When
Post by Whazit Tooyah
someone finds a heretical quote from some SDA of the same era you
would
Post by Whazit Tooyah
claim that he wasn't speaking for the church even though he may have
been a
Post by Whazit Tooyah
district conference president. One can find all kinds of rubbish on
the net
Post by Whazit Tooyah
from the early founders of Adventism including EGW.
Secondly, who gives a rats rear end what an RCC cardinal may have
written
Post by Whazit Tooyah
100+ years ago. He was just as much in error then as he is now. The
only
Post by Whazit Tooyah
churches that care about the Sabbath are the 7th day zealots. Many of
them
Post by Whazit Tooyah
have replaced allegiance to Jesus with allegiance to the Sabbath and
are
Post by Whazit Tooyah
making the Sabbath their idol. It seems that only you and Catholics
give an
Post by Whazit Tooyah
RCC cardinal any authority.
--
WT
LOL back at you. No one originally posted to you about any of this... IF
you don't give a rat's rear end about any of this as you now claim, why
did you come sticking your big head into the dialog of others (again),
and claiming you'd checked it all out and it was sda lies and bias, and
now pretend you never said anything so silly?
Don't you have better things to do? Why bother to constantly fight about
the Sabbath and argue with SDA's and falsely accuse them of making it an
idol, when you claim you don't care about it, and you fail to prove
anything you claim anyway?
Adventists are falsely accusing other Christians of all sorts of things, and
trying to claim members of other denominations by feeding them
misinformation as if it were truth. That justifies a defence, to let people
know the facts, and the real message.

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

IC | XC
---------
NI | KA

add an s before .co.za
Stephen Korsman
2006-08-07 23:18:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Rome has two early witnesses to Sunday keeping, one from Rome and
one
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
from Alexandria, (and another, Barnabus, which they themselves claim
was
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
in error and his writings uninspired, although his writing wqere
read in
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Alexandria as scripture... --And as I quoted previously Socrates
Scholasticus, a church historian of the fifth century A.D., wrote,
"For
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the
sacred
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
mysteries [the Lord's Supper] on the sabbath of every week, yet the
Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient
tradition, have ceased to do this."[2] And Sozomen, a contemporary
of
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Socrates, wrote, "The people of Constantinople, and almost
everywhere,
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the
week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria."[
neither of those witnesses ever claimed that Christ nor the apostles
changed the Sabbath, nor sanctified Sunday, and those two churches
were
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
unique at that time, as the rest of the Christian world kept the
seventh-day Sabbath. As Josephus the Jewish Historian
recorded:"There is
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
no city anywhere of the Greeks nor of the barbarians, to which the
observance of the seventh day, in which we rest, has not reached"
(Against Apion 2.282 [Loeb, 1:404-71).
(snipped some)
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Rome never claimed that the apostles changed the Sabbath till 1000
and
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
500 plus years later at Trent. Korsman can't prove they did, for
it's
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
not biblical, nor established historically, nor by Rome's early
claims,
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
So he's irate.
So, What is Korsman really upset about, and what started this
problem he
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
has here?
Rome lies, The Apostles changed nothing, and he can't prove they
did, as
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
he claims, according to Rome's own history, teaching and doctrines
which
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
he is claiming to uphold and defend....
Here is Rome rebutting Korsman's claims.
http://snipurl.com/RomesClaims
ROME'S CHALLENGE
ROFLMAO Rome's Challenge??
Real intelligent rebuttal..
I am still ROFLMAO over this. You find a document that was written by a
Catholic Cardinal and assume that he speaks for all of Catholicism. When
someone finds a heretical quote from some SDA of the same era you would
claim that he wasn't speaking for the church even though he may have been a
district conference president.
David Koresh.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
One can find all kinds of rubbish on the net
from the early founders of Adventism including EGW.
Secondly, who gives a rats rear end what an RCC cardinal may have written
100+ years ago. He was just as much in error then as he is now. The only
churches that care about the Sabbath are the 7th day zealots. Many of them
have replaced allegiance to Jesus with allegiance to the Sabbath and are
making the Sabbath their idol. It seems that only you and Catholics give an
RCC cardinal any authority.
Cindy gives them more authority than we do. That newspaper was clearly in
error regarding official Catholic teaching and biblical and historical
facts. She NEEDS to pretend it was the official voice of the Vatican in
order to make her point stick.

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

IC | XC
---------
NI | KA

add an s before .co.za
Stephen Korsman
2006-08-07 23:15:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Rome has two early witnesses to Sunday keeping, one from Rome and
one
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
from Alexandria, (and another, Barnabus, which they themselves claim
was
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
in error and his writings uninspired, although his writing wqere
read in
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Alexandria as scripture... --And as I quoted previously Socrates
Scholasticus, a church historian of the fifth century A.D., wrote,
"For
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the
sacred
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
mysteries [the Lord's Supper] on the sabbath of every week, yet the
Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient
tradition, have ceased to do this."[2] And Sozomen, a contemporary
of
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Socrates, wrote, "The people of Constantinople, and almost
everywhere,
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the
week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria."[
neither of those witnesses ever claimed that Christ nor the apostles
changed the Sabbath, nor sanctified Sunday, and those two churches
were
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
unique at that time, as the rest of the Christian world kept the
seventh-day Sabbath. As Josephus the Jewish Historian
recorded:"There is
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
no city anywhere of the Greeks nor of the barbarians, to which the
observance of the seventh day, in which we rest, has not reached"
(Against Apion 2.282 [Loeb, 1:404-71).
(snipped some)
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Rome never claimed that the apostles changed the Sabbath till 1000
and
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
500 plus years later at Trent. Korsman can't prove they did, for
it's
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
not biblical, nor established historically, nor by Rome's early
claims,
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
So he's irate.
So, What is Korsman really upset about, and what started this
problem he
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
has here?
Rome lies, The Apostles changed nothing, and he can't prove they
did, as
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
he claims, according to Rome's own history, teaching and doctrines
which
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
he is claiming to uphold and defend....
Here is Rome rebutting Korsman's claims.
http://snipurl.com/RomesClaims
ROME'S CHALLENGE
ROFLMAO Rome's Challenge??
Real intelligent rebuttal..
Post by Whazit Tooyah
I checked out the site. The site is written by a Seventh-day
Adventist.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Surprise! Surprise! Surprise! Definitely no bias there, only the
truth as
Post by Whazit Tooyah
he sees and compiles it. The author/compiler of the document is in
all
Post by Whazit Tooyah
likelihood a sincere Christian, but his views are tainted by lies and
biases
Post by Whazit Tooyah
of his church.
--
To the contrary, it is your reply here that appears to be tainted by
lies and biases...
IF you'd really checked it out you would know that your brother Korsman
already tried arguing all that, even claiming the articles were
forgeries, and SDA lies, then when he found out they weren't, next
claiming they weren't official, along with every other Catholic
reference which stated the same things, .He failed miserably, here is
the link again- you must have accidentally snipped out from the previous
post, where he is arguing with the website owner
:http://snipurl.com/NotOnKorsmansSite
Further evidence you never checked it out as you claim is that: yes the
site belongs to an SDA, but it's not his views or his words, or bias
written on that page. The author of the document is the editor of the
Catholic Mirror. All the SDA website owner did was scan and publish
the series of articles which were first written by the archdioses of
Baltimore and published in the Catholic Mirror, the official voice of
the Vatican in America.
Hardly the official voice of the Vatican in America. That's like saying the
Branch Davidians and David Koresh were the official voice of Adventism in
Texas.

Newspaper clippings do not count as official Catholic teaching.

Ellen White, on the other hand, is your church's prophetess:

"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that her
writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and authoritative,
especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not believe that the quality
or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is different from
that of Scripture." - http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html

The idea that certain races of non-white people are derived from mating
between animals and humans won't go down well in today's society. Which is
one reason why you won't hear it taught from Adventist pulpits, or hear it
preached in the prophecy seminars you later discovery to be Adventist-run.

This was written by Ellen White (no pun intended on her name) - the
Adventist prophetess, whose inspiration is of the same degree as the
inspiration of the Bible ("We do not believe that the quality or degree of
inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is different from that of
Scripture." - http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html)

Although modern Adventists try to deny that she taught this, it was taught
by some during her time by others, and the teaching was defended by some of
her contemporaries, such as Uriah Smith, with her knowledge. Her husband
even gave Smith's book a glowing review:

The Association has just published a pamphlet entitled, "The Visions of Mrs.
E.G. White, A Manifestation of Spiritual Gifts According to the Scriptures."
It is written by the editor of the Review. While carefully reading the
manuscript, I felt grateful to God that our people could have this able
defense of those views they so much love and prize, which others despise and
oppose.
- James White, Review, Aug. 15, 1868.

Ellen's statements:

But if there was one sin above another which called for the destruction of
the race by the flood, it was the base crime of amalgamation of man and
beast which defaced the image of God, and caused confusion everywhere.
- Ellen White, Spiritual Gifts, Vol. 3, p. 64.

Every species of animal which God had created were preserved in the ark. The
confused species which God did not create, which were the result of
amalgamation, were destroyed by the flood. Since the flood there has been
amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless
varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men.
- Ellen White, Spiritual Gifts, Vol. 3, p. 75.

Contemoraneous teachings:

...that crosses between men and animals had created a no-man's-land between
man and beast, populated by gorillas, chimpanzees, wild bushmen of Africa,
Patagonians, and Hottentots.
- Gordon Shigley, "Amalgamation of Man and Beast: What Did Ellen White
Mean?", Spectrum, vol. 12, no. 4, p. 13.

... the sons of men in those days took from the cattle of the earth, the
beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and taught the mixture of
animals of one species with the other.
- Jasher 4:18. [Evidence that Ellen White used this as a source can be found
at http://www.ellenwhite.org/refute7.htm]

Uriah Smith's defence:

"Since the flood there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be
seen in the almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain
races of men." This view was given for the purpose of illustrating the deep
corruption and crime into which the race fell, even within a few years after
the flood that signal manifestation of God's wrath against human wickedness.
There was amalgamation; and the effect is still visible in certain races of
men." Mark, those excepting the animals upon whom the effects of this work
are visible, are called by the vision, "men." Now we have ever supposed that
anybody that was called a man, was considered a human being. The vision
speaks of all these classes as races of men; yet in the face of this plain
declaration, they foolishly assert that the visions teach that some men are
not human beings! But does any one deny the general statement contained in
the extract given above? They do not. If they did, they could easily be
silenced by a reference to such cases as the wild Bushmen of Africa, some
tribes of the Hottentots, and perhaps the Digger Indians of our own country,
&c. Moreover, naturalists affirm that the line of demarkation between the
human and animal races is lost in confusion. It is impossible, as they
affirm, to tell just where the human ends and the animal begins. Can we
suppose that this was so ordained of God in the beginning? Rather has not
sin marred the boundaries of these two kingdoms?
- Uriah Smith, The Visions of Mrs. E. G. White, A Manifestation of Spiritual
gifts According to the Scripture, pp. 103-4

Adventism has offered all sorts of ideas that this could refer to - genetic
engineering (since the flood???), interracial marriage (enough of those in
the Bible) or marriage between godly and ungodly people (how does that alter
a race?) - but the evidence is against these excuses.

More on this racist teaching - http://www.ellenwhite.org/critica.htm

Sad. But truly good that these inspired words of Ellen White are not taken
seriously by her followers.

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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add an s before .co.za
Stephen Korsman
2006-08-07 23:09:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
x-no-archive: yes
© 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no portion of this
article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of
the
Post by Stephen Korsman
author
That is so true..which is why the argument "it isnt in the bible"
is
Post by Stephen Korsman
not a valid point.
In this case, you are correct. However, in many cases, the point
IS
Post by Stephen Korsman
valid.
and in many cases where a specific issue is not mentioned, enough
similar teaching is given that we can draw a fairly specific
conclusion.
What too many do NOT understand is that the Bible is DELIBERATELY
silent on MANY modern issues meaning that God grants many more
freedom
Post by Stephen Korsman
than they're comfortable with.
For that reason, such "leadership" as that found within the
Vatican,
Post by Stephen Korsman
and such leadership as that found in Calvinism and the "Reformed"
churches go to great lengths to "fill in the gaps" God left, and
"correct" His divine omissions.
THen, Why does Rome claim to have changed the Sabbath sanctification
to
Post by Stephen Korsman
Sunday, when that's not a command of God, or His Son, nor found
anywhere in the bible, and fills in the gaps with their traditions
and
Post by Stephen Korsman
commands and dogma, and why do you a Baptist obey them?
Simply because there is biblical evidence that the early Christians
kept
Post by Stephen Korsman
Sunday, that the Sabbath is not meant for Christians, and the early
Christians wrote in other texts that they kept Sunday.
Your claims about Rome's claims do not match up with Rome's claims.
http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/post/index/238/I-B-Wonderin
http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/post/index/239/I-B-Wondering-2
Korsman is a deceiver...
http://snipurl.com/KorsmansExpose
Rome has two early witnesses to Sunday keeping, one from Rome and one
from Alexandria, (and another, Barnabus, which they themselves claim was
in error and his writings uninspired, although his writing wqere read in
Alexandria as scripture... --And as I quoted previously Socrates
Scholasticus, a church historian of the fifth century A.D., wrote, "For
although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred
mysteries [the Lord's Supper] on the sabbath of every week, yet the
Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient
tradition, have ceased to do this."[2] And Sozomen, a contemporary of
Socrates, wrote, "The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere,
assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the
week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria."[
neither of those witnesses ever claimed that Christ nor the apostles
changed the Sabbath, nor sanctified Sunday, and those two churches were
unique at that time, as the rest of the Christian world kept the
seventh-day Sabbath. As Josephus the Jewish Historian recorded:"There is
no city anywhere of the Greeks nor of the barbarians, to which the
observance of the seventh day, in which we rest, has not reached"
(Against Apion 2.282 [Loeb, 1:404-71).
Josephus, in the main, follows the Biblical narrative, giving the word
"Sabbath" the meaning "rest" ("Ant." i. 1, § 1), and controverting the
stupid etymology of the name upheld by Apion, according to whom the Jews
were forced to observe the Sabbath by the fact of their being afflicted
with bubonic boils known in Egyptian by a word similar to the Hebrew
word "sabbath" ("Contra Ap." ii., § 2). Moreover, his descriptions of
Sabbath celebration do not differ from the Biblical. That the beginning
and end of the Sabbath were announced by trumpet-blasts ("B. J." iv. 9,
§ 12) is shown by the Mishnah (Suk. v. 5).
Josephus makes much of the spread of Sabbath observance in
non-Palestinian cities and among non-Jews ("Contra Ap." ii., § 39; comp.
Philo, "De Vita Moysis," ii. 137 [ed. Mangey]). That he does not
exaggerate is apparent from the comments of Roman writers on the Jewish
Sabbath. Horace, in his "Satires" (i. 9, 69), speaks of "tricesima
Sabbata," which certainly does not refer to a Sabbath so numbered by the
Jews. Juvenal ("Satires," xiv. 96-106), Persius (v. 179-184), Martial
(iv. 4, 7), and Seneca (Augustine, "De Civitate Dei," vi. 11) also refer
to the Sabbath. In the Maccabean struggle the observance of the Sabbath
came to have special significance as distinguishing the faithful from
the half-hearted; but Josephus confirms I Macc. ii. 39-41, where the
faithful, under Mattathias, decided to resist if attacked on the
Sabbath, and not to permit themselves to be destroyed for the sake of
literal obedience to the Sabbath law (comp. "Ant." xii. 6, § 2). He
mentions instances in which the Jews were taken advantage of on the
Sabbath-day-for example, by Ptolemy Lagi ("Ant." xii. 1; xviii. 9, § 2).
Still, according to Josephus, the Jews carried on offensive warfare on
the Sabbath ("B. J." ii. 19, § 2). Titus was outwitted by the plea that
it was unlawful for Jews to treat of peace on the seventh day (ib. iv.
2, § 3). Josephus also publishes decrees exempting Jews from military
service on the Sabbath, which exemption gave rise to persecutions under
Tiberius ("Ant." xiv. 10, § 12 et seq.). The Essenes are referred to as
very rigorous observers of the Sabbath ("B. J." ii. 8, § 9).
Saturday is called "the sacred day" by Tibullus (Tibullus 1.3*.18
[Loeb, 206-7]; cf. more authorities in Eusebius, Preparation for the
Gospel 13.13.677c [ed. E.H. Gifford], 2:732).
Clement of Alexandria: "Not only the Hebrews, but also the Greeks hold
each seventh day to be sacred" (alla kai ten hebdomin hieran, ou monon
hoi Hebraioi, alla kai hoi HellEnes isasi, Stroniata 5.14 [ANF 2:469; PG
9.161-62]). He proves this from Hesiod, Homer, Linus and Callimachus, by
whom the seventh day (hebdomz) is called the "sacred day" (hieron
Ernar). By Philo, it is called the public feast" (heorte pandilmos)
belonging to all the Gentiles equally (Flaccus 14 [116] [Loeb,
9:366-67]).
Rome never claimed that the apostles changed the Sabbath till 1000 and
500 plus years later at Trent. Korsman can't prove they did, for it's
not biblical, nor established historically, nor by Rome's early claims,
So he's irate.
So, What is Korsman really upset about, and what started this problem he
has here?
Rome lies, The Apostles changed nothing, and he can't prove they did, as
he claims, according to Rome's own history, teaching and doctrines which
he is claiming to uphold and defend....
Here is Rome rebutting Korsman's claims.
http://snipurl.com/RomesClaims
ROME'S CHALLENGE
ROFLMAO Rome's Challenge??
I checked out the site. The site is written by a Seventh-day Adventist.
Surprise! Surprise! Surprise! Definitely no bias there, only the truth as
he sees and compiles it. The author/compiler of the document is in all
likelihood a sincere Christian, but his views are tainted by lies and biases
of his church.
Rome's Challenge, if really written by a Catholic, was written by one who
didn't know the Bible well.

I think Cindy is just peeved that we won't bow to her sacred day.

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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add an s before .co.za
Stephen Korsman
2006-08-07 23:08:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Korsman
x-no-archive: yes
© 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no portion of this
article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of
the
Post by Stephen Korsman
author
That is so true..which is why the argument "it isnt in the bible"
is
Post by Stephen Korsman
not a valid point.
In this case, you are correct. However, in many cases, the point
IS
Post by Stephen Korsman
valid.
and in many cases where a specific issue is not mentioned, enough
similar teaching is given that we can draw a fairly specific
conclusion.
What too many do NOT understand is that the Bible is DELIBERATELY
silent on MANY modern issues meaning that God grants many more
freedom
Post by Stephen Korsman
than they're comfortable with.
For that reason, such "leadership" as that found within the
Vatican,
Post by Stephen Korsman
and such leadership as that found in Calvinism and the "Reformed"
churches go to great lengths to "fill in the gaps" God left, and
"correct" His divine omissions.
THen, Why does Rome claim to have changed the Sabbath sanctification
to
Post by Stephen Korsman
Sunday, when that's not a command of God, or His Son, nor found
anywhere in the bible, and fills in the gaps with their traditions
and
Post by Stephen Korsman
commands and dogma, and why do you a Baptist obey them?
Simply because there is biblical evidence that the early Christians
kept
Post by Stephen Korsman
Sunday, that the Sabbath is not meant for Christians, and the early
Christians wrote in other texts that they kept Sunday.
Your claims about Rome's claims do not match up with Rome's claims.
http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/post/index/238/I-B-Wonderin
http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/post/index/239/I-B-Wondering-2
Korsman is a deceiver...
http://snipurl.com/KorsmansExpose
Thanks for the advertisement!
Rome has two early witnesses to Sunday keeping, one from Rome and one
from Alexandria, (and another, Barnabus, which they themselves claim was
in error and his writings uninspired, although his writing wqere read in
Alexandria as scripture... --And as I quoted previously Socrates
Scholasticus, a church historian of the fifth century A.D., wrote, "For
although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred
mysteries [the Lord's Supper] on the sabbath of every week, yet the
Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient
tradition, have ceased to do this."[2]
Whazit Tooyah already pointed out your selective quoting, which is well
neutralised by context:

In Context:
And among various nations there are other usages, for which innumerable
reasons are assigned. **Since however no one can produce a written command
as an authority, it is evident that the apostles left each one to his own
free will in the matter, to the end that each might perform what is good not
by constraint or necessity.** Such is the difference in the churches on the
subject of fasts. Nor is there less variation in regard to religious
assemblies. For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate
the sacred mysteries on the sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of
Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to
do this. The Egyptians in the neighborhood of Alexandria, and the
inhabitants of Thebaïs, hold their religious assemblies on the sabbath, but
do not participate of the mysteries in the manner usual among Christians in
general: for after having eaten and satisfied themselves with food of all
kinds, in the evening making their offerings they partake of the mysteries.
And Sozomen, a contemporary of
Socrates, wrote, "The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere,
assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the
week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria."[
neither of those witnesses ever claimed that Christ nor the apostles
changed the Sabbath, nor sanctified Sunday, and those two churches were
unique at that time, as the rest of the Christian world kept the
seventh-day Sabbath. As Josephus the Jewish Historian recorded:"There is
no city anywhere of the Greeks nor of the barbarians, to which the
observance of the seventh day, in which we rest, has not reached"
(Against Apion 2.282 [Loeb, 1:404-71).
Jews, not Christians.
Josephus, in the main, follows the Biblical narrative, giving the word
"Sabbath" the meaning "rest" ("Ant." i. 1, § 1), and controverting the
stupid etymology of the name upheld by Apion, according to whom the Jews
were forced to observe the Sabbath by the fact of their being afflicted
with bubonic boils known in Egyptian by a word similar to the Hebrew
word "sabbath" ("Contra Ap." ii., § 2). Moreover, his descriptions of
Sabbath celebration do not differ from the Biblical. That the beginning
and end of the Sabbath were announced by trumpet-blasts ("B. J." iv. 9,
§ 12) is shown by the Mishnah (Suk. v. 5).
Jews, not Christians.
Josephus makes much of the spread of Sabbath observance in
non-Palestinian cities and among non-Jews ("Contra Ap." ii., § 39; comp.
Philo, "De Vita Moysis," ii. 137 [ed. Mangey]). That he does not
exaggerate is apparent from the comments of Roman writers on the Jewish
Sabbath. Horace, in his "Satires" (i. 9, 69), speaks of "tricesima
Sabbata," which certainly does not refer to a Sabbath so numbered by the
Jews. Juvenal ("Satires," xiv. 96-106), Persius (v. 179-184), Martial
(iv. 4, 7), and Seneca (Augustine, "De Civitate Dei," vi. 11) also refer
to the Sabbath. In the Maccabean struggle the observance of the Sabbath
came to have special significance as distinguishing the faithful from
the half-hearted; but Josephus confirms I Macc. ii. 39-41, where the
faithful, under Mattathias, decided to resist if attacked on the
Sabbath, and not to permit themselves to be destroyed for the sake of
literal obedience to the Sabbath law (comp. "Ant." xii. 6, § 2). He
mentions instances in which the Jews were taken advantage of on the
Sabbath-day-for example, by Ptolemy Lagi ("Ant." xii. 1; xviii. 9, § 2).
Still, according to Josephus, the Jews carried on offensive warfare on
the Sabbath ("B. J." ii. 19, § 2). Titus was outwitted by the plea that
it was unlawful for Jews to treat of peace on the seventh day (ib. iv.
2, § 3). Josephus also publishes decrees exempting Jews from military
service on the Sabbath, which exemption gave rise to persecutions under
Tiberius ("Ant." xiv. 10, § 12 et seq.). The Essenes are referred to as
very rigorous observers of the Sabbath ("B. J." ii. 8, § 9).
Jews, not Christians.
Saturday is called "the sacred day" by Tibullus (Tibullus 1.3*.18
[Loeb, 206-7]; cf. more authorities in Eusebius, Preparation for the
Gospel 13.13.677c [ed. E.H. Gifford], 2:732).
Pagans in 30 BC. Not Christians.
Clement of Alexandria: "Not only the Hebrews, but also the Greeks hold
each seventh day to be sacred" (alla kai ten hebdomin hieran, ou monon
hoi Hebraioi, alla kai hoi HellEnes isasi, Stroniata 5.14 [ANF 2:469; PG
9.161-62]). He proves this from Hesiod, Homer, Linus and Callimachus, by
whom the seventh day (hebdomz) is called the "sacred day" (hieron
Ernar). By Philo, it is called the public feast" (heorte pandilmos)
belonging to all the Gentiles equally (Flaccus 14 [116] [Loeb,
9:366-67]).
Jews and pagans, not Christians. (Clement was a Christian, but is referring
to Jews, and quoting them and pagan Greeks.
Rome never claimed that the apostles changed the Sabbath till 1000 and
500 plus years later at Trent. Korsman can't prove they did, for it's
not biblical, nor established historically, nor by Rome's early claims,
So he's irate.
So, What is Korsman really upset about, and what started this problem he
has here?
Your dishonesty when dealing with the Bible and historical evidence. As we
can see above, your selective quotations are one example, and this is
another:

http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/post/index/239/I-B-Wondering-2

And this: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/post/index/238/I-B-Wonderin
Rome lies, The Apostles changed nothing, and he can't prove they did, as
he claims, according to Rome's own history, teaching and doctrines which
he is claiming to uphold and defend....
Here is Rome rebutting Korsman's claims.
http://snipurl.com/RomesClaims
ROME'S CHALLENGE
Adventist propaganda snipped.

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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---------
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add an s before .co.za
Stephen Korsman
2006-08-04 18:55:34 UTC
Permalink
That is so true..which is why the argument "it isnt in the bible" is
not a valid point.
I suppose someone is expected to know to whom you are addressing.
The English translations are in the bible.
The translation "this" is accurate.
The translation Peter is accurate.
The translation "Rock" is accurate.
Peter is NOT "the" or "a" "Rock"
Since Peter is not a rock, you've just said that the Apostle named Rock is
not a rock.

Odd.

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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---------
NI | KA

add an s before .co.za
Stephen Korsman
2006-08-07 22:02:16 UTC
Permalink
As a legitimate "office of the church".....you are correct; it is
not scriptural, but rather a clear mark of the foretold apostasy.
Actually, it is scriptural. Mat 16:13-20.
Yes, that passage has been interpreted as supposedly supporting the idea
of
the office of a Pope; but as has been pointed out - such interpretation
is not
upheld by the remainder of the NT. Therefore, it must be rejected by
honest
Bible students.
Yet biblical scholar research support it's legitimacy. The spread of
Christianity addressed Christ in the NT, not the papacy. Try something
else.

Andrew doesn't believe in biblical scholarship. He believes in newspaper
clippings.
You know, direct communication with the Father,
Direct communion with the Father, is possible only by a priest through
the merits of Christ. The Bible teaching is that all Christians have the
holy privilege of direct communion, because THEY ARE a royal priest-
hood (1 Peter 2), as opposed to Catholicism which states that its parish-
ioners must go through one of their priests, who is also a sinner..as
they.
So is your royal priesthood nothing but a bunch of sinners. You're
confused
over the Papacy, which is the direct communication with the Father.
AND, to boot, we go to confession as Christ instructed Christians. You
reject
same.
And he has no comprehension of Catholic teaching, which also teaches the
universal priesthood, not only the ministerial priesthood, and that we have
direct communion with God.

But what's new? If he can't show that what it teaches is false, he'll make
things up that it doesn't teach.

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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add an s before .co.za
Stephen Korsman
2006-08-07 22:06:59 UTC
Permalink
I'm laughing at you protest_ants for being too ignorant to see that you
are defeating yourself with this silly "it's not in the bible" game;
ie,
neither the words Jesus Christ, Pope, apostle, Trinity, etc are in the
bible in
English form, but all of the individuals, events, assignments are.
You have stated it over and over again and your statements are a bunch of
empty words. I can find evidence for or the underlying Greek words for
Jesus Christ, apostle, born again, Christian, the Trinity, but I can find
nothing that suggests a pope.
And "Kephas" = rock foundation = "peter in translation" is clearly
assigned to
Simon.
You offer nothing as evidence. So I will ask
again. Please provide Biblical evidence for the office of Pope as a
continuing office. Please show from scripture where the Pope is an
office
of the church.
I keep telling you - Mat 16:13-20, Acts 15:7. It's scriptural. It's
historical
from the very earliest day of the new Christian way. It's professed by
the
early Church Fathers.
I expect at least some biblical citings. If you don't
provide it, I will assume that you are just a blowhard who expects their
opinion to be taken as fact.
No, not my opinion, but the words of Christ.
Most of the scholarship I have read disagrees with you on the original
language of the New Testament, but there are some who believe as you
do.
It's absolutely true. The first book recording may be in Greek (hence
written
in Greek), but Jesus and his apostles and disciples did not speak
Greek,
but
Aramaic, and quite likely a few words of Hebrew, Greek, Latin, etc.
Show some evidence other than your opinion. Everything I can find says
that
the New Testament was originally written in Greek, but there are a few
scholars (a minority) who believe that it was written in Aramaic.
Nobody is arguing that the first writing/translation is in Greek as it
goes.
Jesus and his follows spoke Aramaic and Hebrew, with likely a very few
words of
Greek and Latin.
You're being misled.
BTW the gospel of Luke was written by Luke, a Greek or a Roman. Very
unlikely that he would not write in Greek especially when the work was
written to another Greek or Roman, i.e. Theophilus.
BUT, Jesus and his followers spoke Aramaic. You appear unable to grasp
that
simple fact. By this fact, Greek as the original writing is by definition
the
first translation.
Great - Matthew was recording the first translation of the words of
Jesus
spoken
in Aramaic. Don't you get it yet?
Which would indicate that he wrote the book in a language other than
Aramaic. Why translate Aramaic to Aramaic????
??????
Why not? You're trying to turn a phrase from a cross into a modern day
novel
written on a computer.
This argument means what exactly? If I were quoting you in English, I
would
not have to add an interpretation. If I were quoting the exact words of
Adolph Hitler in the language spoken, then I would have to include a
translation so the English speaking reader could understand. If Matthew
was
writing Aramaic words to an Aramaic readership adding a translation into
Aramaic would be senseless.
According to my bible intro to Matthew, he was writing to a church
consisting of
both Jews and Gentiles. He was responding to several crises in his
church.
Christianity started out as a Jewish phenomenon. More and more gentiles
were
entering. This shift, along with the delay of the 2nd coming, and the
separation from the synagogue necessitated a reinterpretation of the
traditions
handed on to the Church.
Jesus spoke ARAMAIC. It's a fact.
So say you. Jesus spoke Aramaic, yes, but that doesn't mean that in the
thirty years between His birth and the start of His ministry he wouldn't
have learned another language at least enough to converse casually.
Nor that he had. You're confusing a person age 30 years as he was 2000
years
ago versus today with a high education. He was a carpenter is a rock
house. He
was not part of the commerce picture, and neither were his disciples.
They were
ordinary men, fishermen, etc.
Yet Jesus, as a common man, still spoke Aramaic, and Matthew would
still
have
had to take what Jesus said in Aramaic and write down the translation.
Which would mean that Matthew was probably written in Greek.
Again, the first translation.
The classic example of all time is cephas/kephas meaning rock in
Aramaic,
but translated in Greek to petros/petra, or pebble/small rock.
So you are saying that Jesus built His church on a pebble or a small
rock.
Unlikely! This statement seems to support the protestant position of no
pope.
No, that's what you protest_ers say. Greek is difficult in translation.
Jesus
called Simon as "Cephas/Kephas", which is Aramaic for ROCK. The
translation to
Greek is poor and only as petros/petra.
Is it that poor? After all, both words were identical in meaning in that
dialect, and both translated Kepha quite well. Both mean rock. The
confusion comes in with the gender usage of Greek ... so English speakers
have trouble with petros vs petra, and think they are different things.
Hence Simon became
Simon Peter, a compromise.
Which means??
Peter is a compromise for petra/petros.
I did a little research and the Aramaic word "keph," from which kephas is
derived, means a hollow rock. Does this have any significance? I don't
know, but I found it interesting and it made it seem even more unlikely
that
Jesus would build His church on a hollow rock.
Good grief. Maybe 2000 years ago, it meant "rock solid", as in rock solid
foundation.
It did. The Aramaic of Matthew has Jesus building his Church on a kepha.

God bless,
Stephn
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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duke
2006-08-08 00:37:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Korsman
No, that's what you protest_ers say. Greek is difficult in translation.
Jesus
called Simon as "Cephas/Kephas", which is Aramaic for ROCK. The
translation to
Greek is poor and only as petros/petra.
Is it that poor? After all, both words were identical in meaning in that
dialect, and both translated Kepha quite well. Both mean rock. The
confusion comes in with the gender usage of Greek ... so English speakers
have trouble with petros vs petra, and think they are different things.
In the case of Cephus/Kephus = rock, it is. Protest_ers like to make maque on
pebble/small rock in petra/petros, and that is a Greek translation problem.
Post by Stephen Korsman
Good grief. Maybe 2000 years ago, it meant "rock solid", as in rock solid
foundation.
It did. The Aramaic of Matthew has Jesus building his Church on a kepha.
Right - a rock foundation.


duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
Stephen Korsman
2006-08-07 22:27:56 UTC
Permalink
And "Kephas" = rock foundation = "peter in translation" is clearly
assigned to
Simon.
You stated that kephas meant pebble or small rock to which I concur.
You only wish that was what I said. Jesus called Simon "Kephas/Cephus",
which
in Aramaic, the language of Jesus, means rock.
You offer nothing as evidence. So I will ask
again. Please provide Biblical evidence for the office of Pope as a
continuing office. Please show from scripture where the Pope is an
office
of the church.
I keep telling you - Mat 16:13-20, Acts 15:7. It's scriptural. It's
historical
from the very earliest day of the new Christian way. It's professed by
the
early Church Fathers.
Those verses in Acts show the Jerusalem council discussing doctrine.
And verse 7 specifically says that God chose Peter to bring the gospel to
the
Gentiles.
Peter
is shown great respect, but it seems that James is the chairman of this
council.
Nope, James is the leader of the Jews.
That Peter put and end to the debate is certainly more significant than
James confirming what Peter said, and adding practical applications.

There was probably no chairman ... nothing suggests James was ... but there
was Peter's leadership.
I've read the early church fathers of the first and second centuries and
the
is no general indication of Roman or papal primacy. What there was is a
discussion of doctrine and a fight to remove heresy.
Then you're reading the protest_ant version.
I expect at least some biblical citings. If you don't
provide it, I will assume that you are just a blowhard who expects
their
opinion to be taken as fact.
No, not my opinion, but the words of Christ.
Nope! You or your churches opinion, but it requires one to read into
scripture a lot of material that isn't there.
Scripture, history, and the early church fathers disagree with you.
Nobody is arguing that the first writing/translation is in Greek as it
goes.
Jesus and his follows spoke Aramaic and Hebrew, with likely a very few
words of
Greek and Latin.
This discussion started when you stated that the word apostle wasn't in
the
Bible, I showed that it was.
And it isn't. And I told you why.
Apostle is a transliteration of apostolos which
is in the Greek NT. You then started talking about Aramaic and that
Greek
was the first translation. I am confused.
Yes you are.
But since you have agreed that
the NT was originally written in Greek and I have shown the Greek word
for
apostle, now show me the Greek word for pope.
The Greek NT is a first translation. It's really not to hard for a
Christian to
understand.
You're being misled.
You have been misled
Your handlers are misleading you.
BTW the gospel of Luke was written by Luke, a Greek or a Roman. Very
unlikely that he would not write in Greek especially when the work was
written to another Greek or Roman, i.e. Theophilus.
BUT, Jesus and his followers spoke Aramaic. You appear unable to grasp
that
simple fact. By this fact, Greek as the original writing is by
definition
the
first translation.
There is nothing to suggest that Jesus spoke ONLY Aramaic in the Bible.
There is nothing to suggest that he could speak Greek.
In all probability, he could speak Aramaic, Greek, and probably Latin.
Aramaic was the local language, Greek and, to a lesser extent, Latin were
the main business languages of the empire. He probably also spoke Hebrew,
since he read it in the Temple.

It's extremely improbable that Jesus spoke Greek to a group of Aramaic
speakers for whom Aramaic was first language.
In
fact there is evidence that Jesus was able to communicate to whomever he
wished. I don't remember seeing a mention of Jesus using an interpreter.
He spoke Aramaic to people that spoke Aramaic. You'll figure it out
sooner or
later.
Nor that he had. You're confusing a person age 30 years as he was 2000
years
ago versus today with a high education. He was a carpenter is a rock
house. He
was not part of the commerce picture, and neither were his disciples.
They were
ordinary men, fishermen, etc.
No confusion, but no assumptions that aren't in the Bible either.
You're assuming that Jesus spoke Greek.
The
fisherman weren't subsistence fisherman, they sold their fish in the
markets, they owned several boats and were in partnership with others, in
other words, a fishing business.
More assumptions. You're dreaming. The apostles were 12 ordinary men.
You still haven't addressed the fact that Jesus read from the Septuagint
in
the synagogue in Luke 4.
He didn't read much less from the LXX.
It's unlikely that he didn't read it out loud ... but it's even more
unlikely that it was the LXX he read from. Luke quoted the LXX when he
wrote.
No, that's what you protest_ers say. Greek is difficult in
translation.
Jesus
called Simon as "Cephas/Kephas", which is Aramaic for ROCK. The
translation to
Greek is poor and only as petros/petra.
You can't even stand by what you wrote. First you say that kephas means
pebble or small rock and then in the next post you say that kephas means
ROCK. I should just stand back and let you argue with yourself.
You can't read what I wrote. Not even you could be as ignorant as you're
making
out right now. If you can't be honest enough to repeat what I said and
not what
you wish I'd said, there's no point in going further. Right now you're
choosing
to be no more reliable than doc.
Hence Simon became
Simon Peter, a compromise.
Which means??
Peter is a compromise for petra/petros.
Peter is a transliteration of Petros in Greek to Peter in English, just
as
apostolos in Greek is transliterated to apostle in English. Where is the
Greek form of pope?
And Jesus told Simon he was a ROCK in Aramaic.
From what I can find pope is a transliteration of pape' from Latin The
Latin word means father. Now you have a little problem. Jesus was very
You cna't find anything. Pope means father, poppa, etc.
Mt 23:9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father,
He
who is in heaven.
10 Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.
And there is only one Father IN HEAVEN.
1 Corinthians 4:15 (New International Version)
15Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have
many
fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.
See, calling your spiritual man-leader as "Father" is scriptural.
Jesus was giving a lesson on pride, not linguistics.

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

IC | XC
---------
NI | KA

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duke
2006-08-08 00:33:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Korsman
There is nothing to suggest that Jesus spoke ONLY Aramaic in the Bible.
There is nothing to suggest that he could speak Greek.
In all probability, he could speak Aramaic, Greek, and probably Latin.
Aramaic was the local language, Greek and, to a lesser extent, Latin were
the main business languages of the empire. He probably also spoke Hebrew,
since he read it in the Temple.
Aramaic was his native language. Hebrew likely a second. However, he was not a
merchant or businessman, so any Greek or Latin was likely a bit here and a bit
there.

We do know that he addressed Simon as Cephus/Kephus. And according to
scripture, that means "rock".
Post by Stephen Korsman
He didn't read much less from the LXX.
It's unlikely that he didn't read it out loud ... but it's even more
unlikely that it was the LXX he read from. Luke quoted the LXX when he
wrote.
And I'm not the one that said he read the LXX in the synagogue.

duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
Stephen Korsman
2006-08-08 16:19:56 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 8 Aug 2006 00:27:56 +0200, "Stephen Korsman"
Post by Stephen Korsman
There is nothing to suggest that Jesus spoke ONLY Aramaic in the Bible.
There is nothing to suggest that he could speak Greek.
In all probability, he could speak Aramaic, Greek, and probably Latin.
Aramaic was the local language, Greek and, to a lesser extent, Latin were
the main business languages of the empire. He probably also spoke Hebrew,
since he read it in the Temple.
Aramaic was his native language. Hebrew likely a second. However, he was not a
merchant or businessman, so any Greek or Latin was likely a bit here and a bit
there.
We do know that he addressed Simon as Cephus/Kephus. And according to
scripture, that means "rock".
Post by Stephen Korsman
He didn't read much less from the LXX.
It's unlikely that he didn't read it out loud ... but it's even more
unlikely that it was the LXX he read from. Luke quoted the LXX when he
wrote.
And I'm not the one that said he read the LXX in the synagogue.
I know :-)

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

IC | XC
---------
NI | KA

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Whazit Tooyah
2006-08-11 02:22:47 UTC
Permalink
And "Kephas" = rock foundation = "peter in translation" is clearly
assigned to
Simon.
You stated that kephas meant pebble or small rock to which I concur.
You only wish that was what I said. Jesus called Simon "Kephas/Cephus",
which
in Aramaic, the language of Jesus, means rock.
You offer nothing as evidence. So I will ask
again. Please provide Biblical evidence for the office of Pope as a
continuing office. Please show from scripture where the Pope is an
office
of the church.
I keep telling you - Mat 16:13-20, Acts 15:7. It's scriptural. It's
historical
from the very earliest day of the new Christian way. It's professed by
the
early Church Fathers.
Those verses in Acts show the Jerusalem council discussing doctrine.
And verse 7 specifically says that God chose Peter to bring the gospel to
the
Gentiles.
Peter
is shown great respect, but it seems that James is the chairman of this
council.
Nope, James is the leader of the Jews.
That Peter put and end to the debate is certainly more significant than
James confirming what Peter said, and adding practical applications.
You must have a different Bible than I have, because mine says that the Paul
and Barnabas also spoke after Peter. Peter merely testified.as did others.
It is James who gives the verdict:
Ac 15:13 After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying,
"Brethren, listen to me.
14 Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from
among the Gentiles a people for His name.

James does not seem to see Peter's words as anything more than just
evidence. James then quotes some OT verses and in the following verses
renders his verdict which the council of elders carries out.

19 Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are
turning to God from among the Gentiles,
20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated
by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.
If you read the letter sent to the churches, it says exactly what James
decreed. After this there was no debate, nor is there an indication that
this matter was even voted on. The primacy of Peter IS NOT supported by
this passage.
There was probably no chairman ... nothing suggests James was ... but there
was Peter's leadership.
Not so as seen in a contextual reading of the passage.
an, i.e. Theophilus.
BUT, Jesus and his followers spoke Aramaic. You appear unable to grasp
that
simple fact. By this fact, Greek as the original writing is by
definition
the
first translation.
There is nothing to suggest that Jesus spoke ONLY Aramaic in the Bible.
There is nothing to suggest that he could speak Greek.
In all probability, he could speak Aramaic, Greek, and probably Latin.
Aramaic was the local language, Greek and, to a lesser extent, Latin were
the main business languages of the empire. He probably also spoke Hebrew,
since he read it in the Temple.
I imagine that Jesus could speak any language He wanted.
It's extremely improbable that Jesus spoke Greek to a group of Aramaic
speakers for whom Aramaic was first language.
In
fact there is evidence that Jesus was able to communicate to whomever he
wished. I don't remember seeing a mention of Jesus using an
interpreter.
He spoke Aramaic to people that spoke Aramaic. You'll figure it out
sooner or
later.
Nor that he had. You're confusing a person age 30 years as he was 2000
years
ago versus today with a high education. He was a carpenter is a rock
house. He
was not part of the commerce picture, and neither were his disciples.
They were
ordinary men, fishermen, etc.
No confusion, but no assumptions that aren't in the Bible either.
You're assuming that Jesus spoke Greek.
The
fisherman weren't subsistence fisherman, they sold their fish in the
markets, they owned several boats and were in partnership with others, in
other words, a fishing business.
More assumptions. You're dreaming. The apostles were 12 ordinary men.
You still haven't addressed the fact that Jesus read from the Septuagint
in
the synagogue in Luke 4.
He didn't read much less from the LXX.
It's unlikely that he didn't read it out loud ... but it's even more
unlikely that it was the LXX he read from. Luke quoted the LXX when he
wrote.
Possibly an explanation,but there is no way of knowing one way or another.
The Septuagint was very common and certainly the Pharisees, Sadducees and
most Rabbis could read Greek.
Mt 23:9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father,
He
who is in heaven.
10 Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.
And there is only one Father IN HEAVEN.
1 Corinthians 4:15 (New International Version)
15Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have
many
fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.
See, calling your spiritual man-leader as "Father" is scriptural.
NOT. Paul is speaking figuratively, nor is he telling or asking to be
called father.
Jesus was giving a lesson on pride, not linguistics.
I disagree, Jesus was also giving a lesson on the source of doctrine and
authority. That being God and God alone.
Mt 23:8 But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are
all brothers.
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who
is in heaven.
10 Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.

Clearly not pride alone, because He is not only saying "don't be called..."
He is also saying don't call anyone on earth....
The Bible describes local pastors (Bishops) and deacons, but it says nothing
of any office higher than that.
--
WT

By this all men will know that you are My disciples,
if you have love for one another
duke
2006-08-11 15:41:24 UTC
Permalink
The primacy of Peter IS NOT supported by this passage.
The primacy of Peter is established throughout the 4 gospels. He is #1 to
Jesus.
Not so as seen in a contextual reading of the passage.
Peter is fully #1 in the context of the 4 gospels.
I imagine that Jesus could speak any language He wanted.
No he could not. Jesus was a man with limited formal education. You must
remember that Jesus never called upon his divinity, or he would have disrupted
the fact that he was fully man.
Post by Stephen Korsman
It's unlikely that he didn't read it out loud ... but it's even more
unlikely that it was the LXX he read from. Luke quoted the LXX when he
wrote.
Possibly an explanation,but there is no way of knowing one way or another.
The Septuagint was very common and certainly the Pharisees, Sadducees and
most Rabbis could read Greek.
Maybe so, maybe not.
Post by Stephen Korsman
See, calling your spiritual man-leader as "Father" is scriptural.
NOT. Paul is speaking figuratively, nor is he telling or asking to be
called father.
Where does scripture say Paul was speaking figuratively?
Post by Stephen Korsman
Jesus was giving a lesson on pride, not linguistics.
I disagree, Jesus was also giving a lesson on the source of doctrine and
authority. That being God and God alone.
Mt 23:8 But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are
all brothers.
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who
is in heaven.
10 Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.
Right, and Father in heaven and parental father are two different things. Look
at it in context. You protest_ers are big on that concept.
Clearly not pride alone, because He is not only saying "don't be called..."
He is also saying don't call anyone on earth....
The Bible describes local pastors (Bishops)
Your local pastor may be a bishop, but the Bishop of Rome is the Pope.

duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
Andrew
2006-08-11 22:54:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by duke
The primacy of Peter is established throughout the
4 gospels. He is #1 to Jesus.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Not so as seen in a contextual reading of the passage.
Peter is fully #1 in the context of the 4 gospels.
("duke")
In the context of the 4 gospels, and in the context of all
things..Jesus Christ is fully #1, AND IN FIRST PLACE.

"And *He* is the head of the body, the assembly; who
is the beginning, firstborn from among the dead, that
*He* might have the first place in all things."
Colossians 1:18

This idea that "Peter is fully #1" illustrates the deception of
a ~papacy~ which usurps the place of Christ, by placing a
*man* "in the place of Christ"...... exactly as we have been
warned about in the holy Scriptures that our wonderful God
in Heaven has given to us.

********************* Prophecy: **********************

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come
unless the falling away [apostasy] comes first, and the man of sin
is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself <---- The prophecy
above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as
God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."
2 Thessalonians 2:2-4


******************** Fulfillment: **********************

"The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, he is Jesus Christ <---- The Pulfillment
himself, hidden under the veil of flesh." -- Catholic National July 1895

"All the names which in the Scripture are applied to Christ, by virtue of
which it is established that he is over the church, all the same names are
applied to the Pope." On the Authority of the Councils, VoL 1 p. 266

"For thou (the pope) art the shepherd, thou art the physician, thou art the
director, thou art the husbandman finally, thou art another God on earth."
Fifth Lateral Council, Session (1512), in Mansi SC, Vol. 32, col. 761

"The pope is the supreme judge of the law of the land.. He is the vicegerent
of Christ, and is not only a priest forever, but also King of kings and Lord
of lords"--La Civilta Cattolica, March 18, 1871
Stephen Korsman
2006-08-12 10:46:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by duke
The primacy of Peter is established throughout the
4 gospels. He is #1 to Jesus.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Not so as seen in a contextual reading of the passage.
Peter is fully #1 in the context of the 4 gospels.
("duke")
In the context of the 4 gospels, and in the context of all
things..Jesus Christ is fully #1, AND IN FIRST PLACE.
"And *He* is the head of the body, the assembly; who
is the beginning, firstborn from among the dead, that
*He* might have the first place in all things."
Colossians 1:18
This idea that "Peter is fully #1" illustrates the deception of
a ~papacy~ which usurps the place of Christ, by placing a
*man* "in the place of Christ"...... exactly as we have been
warned about in the holy Scriptures that our wonderful God
in Heaven has given to us.
Nice that you take Duke's words out of context. Very Christian of you,
taking people's words out of context in order to further your attack on
their beliefs.
Post by Andrew
********************* Prophecy: **********************
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come
unless the falling away [apostasy] comes first, and the man of sin
is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself
<---- The prophecy
Post by Andrew
above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as
God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."
2 Thessalonians 2:2-4
******************** Fulfillment: **********************
"The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, he is Jesus
Christ <---- The Pulfillment
Post by Andrew
himself, hidden under the veil of flesh." -- Catholic National July 1895
Newspaper clippings are your expertise, aren't they, Andrew?
Post by Andrew
"All the names which in the Scripture are applied to Christ, by virtue of
which it is established that he is over the church, all the same names are
applied to the Pope." On the Authority of the Councils, VoL 1 p. 266
"For thou (the pope) art the shepherd, thou art the physician, thou art the
director, thou art the husbandman finally, thou art another God on earth."
Fifth Lateral Council, Session (1512), in Mansi SC, Vol. 32, col. 761
"The pope is the supreme judge of the law of the land.. He is the vicegerent
of Christ, and is not only a priest forever, but also King of kings and Lord
of lords"--La Civilta Cattolica, March 18, 1871
All well-explained in context if context ever becomes important to you,
Andrew.

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

IC | XC
---------
NI | KA

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duke
2006-08-12 13:27:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by duke
Peter is fully #1 in the context of the 4 gospels.
("duke")
In the context of the 4 gospels, and in the context of all
things..Jesus Christ is fully #1, AND IN FIRST PLACE.
"And *He* is the head of the body, the assembly; who
is the beginning, firstborn from among the dead, that
*He* might have the first place in all things."
Colossians 1:18
This idea that "Peter is fully #1" illustrates the deception of
a ~papacy~ which usurps the place of Christ, by placing a
*man* "in the place of Christ"...... exactly as we have been
warned about in the holy Scriptures that our wonderful God
in Heaven has given to us.
You want to play stupid - ok, try this. **Jesus** placed Peter as prime in his
relationship with him as opposed to other apostles. You really do need to get
hold of yourself over this one.

Remember, Jesus left. And sent the Holy Spirit in his place.

duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
Andrew
2006-08-12 19:22:01 UTC
Permalink
**Jesus** placed Peter as prime in his relationship
with him as opposed to other apostles.
No, remember at the last supper that Jesus placed the
apostle John (not Peter) closest to Him. So that Peter
had to ask John to ask Jesus exactly who it was who
was going to betray Him.
Jesus left. And sent the Holy Spirit in his place.
Yes, not a Pope.


Andrew
duke
2006-08-13 13:49:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
**Jesus** placed Peter as prime in his relationship
with him as opposed to other apostles.
No, remember at the last supper that Jesus placed the
apostle John (not Peter) closest to Him. So that Peter
had to ask John to ask Jesus exactly who it was who
was going to betray Him.
In di Vinci's painting?

The primacy of Peter is well reflected in the 4 gospels.
Post by Andrew
Jesus left. And sent the Holy Spirit in his place.
Yes, not a Pope.
Yes, a man in charge of his Church on earth under the guidance of the Holy
Spirit. One of the 12+1 was in charge, and the bible is clear - it's Simon
Peter. Acts 15:7.


duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
Whazit Tooyah
2006-08-13 20:33:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by duke
Post by Andrew
**Jesus** placed Peter as prime in his relationship
with him as opposed to other apostles.
No, remember at the last supper that Jesus placed the
apostle John (not Peter) closest to Him. So that Peter
had to ask John to ask Jesus exactly who it was who
was going to betray Him.
In di Vinci's painting?
The primacy of Peter is well reflected in the 4 gospels.
Post by Andrew
Jesus left. And sent the Holy Spirit in his place.
Yes, not a Pope.
Yes, a man in charge of his Church on earth under the guidance of the Holy
Spirit. One of the 12+1 was in charge, and the bible is clear - it's Simon
Peter. Acts 15:7.
Acts 15 shows more evidence that James was in charge of the Jerusalem
council than Peter. Peter testified which was recorded as did others which
was not recorded. James gives the decision and that decision is carried out
precisely as he said. Read the text as written. I have separated the text
with my observations and highlighted two key phrases.

Peter offers a compelling argument

Ac 15:7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them,
"Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that
by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy
Spirit, just as He also did to us;
9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts
by faith.
10 Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of
the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to
bear?
11 But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in
the same way as they also are."

Paul and Barnabas offer concurring evidence.

12 All the people kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul
as they were relating what signs and wonders God had done through them among
the Gentiles.

James offers biblical reasoning.

13 After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, "Brethren,
listen to me.
14 Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from
among the Gentiles a people for His name.
15 With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,
16 'After these things I will return,
And I will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen,
And I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will restore it,
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
And all the Gentiles who are called by My name,'
18 Says the Lord, who makes these things known from long ago.

James offers his decision

19 Therefore *it is my judgment* that we do not trouble those who are
turning to God from among the Gentiles,
20 but that we write to them that they **abstain from things contaminated
by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.**
21 For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach
him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."

The council agrees and James' decision is carried out and his ruling is sent
to Antioch churches

22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole
church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and
Barnabas-Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren,

The written wording of James decision as agreed by the council of elders and
apostles

23 and they sent this letter by them,
"The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch
and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings.
24 "Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no
instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls,
25 it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send
to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 "Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report
the same things by word of mouth.
28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no
greater burden than these essentials:

James' decision written and sent to the churches

29 that you **abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and
from things strangled and from fornication**; if you keep yourselves free
from such things, you will do well. Farewell."

There is no primacy of Peter in Acts 15. Sorry, but you have to exclude too
much of the rest of the chapter to come to this conclusion.
--
WT

By this all men will know that you are My disciples,
if you have love for one another
duke
2006-08-13 22:20:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Acts 15 shows more evidence that James was in charge of the Jerusalem
council than Peter.
Peter offers a compelling argument
Ac 15:7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them,
"Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that
by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
And there you have the culminating event of Simon Peter's elevation to the
Papacy.

duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
Whazit Tooyah
2006-08-14 05:51:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Acts 15 shows more evidence that James was in charge of the Jerusalem
council than Peter.
Peter offers a compelling argument
Ac 15:7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them,
"Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that
by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
And there you have the culminating event of Simon Peter's elevation to the
Papacy.
Which is superseded by the rest of the context. It only works to elevate
Peter to the papacy if you ignore the rest of the passage, which you did by
deleting it from your reply to my post. Using the one verse at a time
method you are using, one can make the Bible support absolutely anything you
want it to. One can use the Bible one verse at a time to support suicide,
abortion, lying just to name a few that I can think of off the top of my
head.

Any reputable person will recommend reading 20 verses before and 20 verses a
cited verse to find out if the contextual reading of the verse supports the
statement made by the one citing the verse. In this case a contextual
reading of Acts 15 offers absolutely no support to the idea of Peter as
Pope. You are left with on very disputed verse in Matthew where Jesus says
You are Peter (a small stone) and upon this rock (bedrock, immovable rock) I
will build my church. BTW, I don't buy the Aramaic argument either, unless
you can produce an Aramaic original of Matthew's gospel. Everything I can
find says it originated in Greek and was probably written to the church in
Antioch. They cite the similarities in wording and sentence structure in
the synoptic gospels as evidence. If Matthew was in fact translated from
Aramaic into Greek (not likely), it was done by somebody who understood
Aramaic of the 1st century and understood the subtle differences in the
words Jesus said and reflected it in the Greek Since Matthew was there, he
knew what Jesus meant and his usage of words reflects the difference in
meaning.. You and Stephan are only speculating, unless you can produce
Matthew's autograph of the gospel in Aramaic.
--
WT

By this all men will know that you are My disciples,
if you have love for one another
duke
2006-08-14 10:54:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Acts 15 shows more evidence that James was in charge of the Jerusalem
council than Peter.
Peter offers a compelling argument
Ac 15:7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them,
"Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that
by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
And there you have the culminating event of Simon Peter's elevation to the
Papacy.
Which is superseded by the rest of the context. It only works to elevate
Peter to the papacy if you ignore the rest of the passage, which you did by
deleting it from your reply to my post.
There is no way you can hide from the statement of Acts 15:7, even if they were
discussing who is #1 after the latest chariot races.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Using the one verse at a time
method you are using, one can make the Bible support absolutely anything you
want it to. One can use the Bible one verse at a time to support suicide,
abortion, lying just to name a few that I can think of off the top of my
head.
Now add Mat 16 including Peter's direct communication with the Father, receiving
the keys to the kingdom, and to bind on earth to be so in heaven, plus the
primacy of Peter in the Gospels and you have a firm establishment of the new
Christian Church on earth led by man with Peter as the Pope.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Any reputable person will recommend reading 20 verses before and 20 verses a
cited verse to find out if the contextual reading of the verse supports the
statement made by the one citing the verse.
Then I recommend you read not 20 verses but the 4 gospels, the words of Jesus,
to establish the context. It jumps right out at you.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
In this case a contextual
reading of Acts 15 offers absolutely no support to the idea of Peter as
Pope. You are left with on very disputed verse in Matthew where Jesus says
You are Peter (a small stone) and upon this rock (bedrock, immovable rock) I
will build my church.
Yet Jesus didn't call him "peter", but Cephas, which in Aramaic means rock. And
the rock foundation of the human leadership when he Christ leaves is exactly
what he was calling for.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
BTW, I don't buy the Aramaic argument either, unless
you can produce an Aramaic original of Matthew's gospel. Everything I can
find says it originated in Greek and was probably written to the church in
Antioch.
You still miss the point. Even if Matthew wrote in Greek, Jesus spoke Aramaic
making Matthew a 1st translation.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
They cite the similarities in wording and sentence structure in
the synoptic gospels as evidence. If Matthew was in fact translated from
Aramaic into Greek (not likely),
Spoken in Aramaic and recorded in Greek.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
it was done by somebody who understood
Aramaic of the 1st century and understood the subtle differences in the
words Jesus said and reflected it in the Greek
Understood, smuderstood. Accept the facts.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Since Matthew was there, he
knew what Jesus meant and his usage of words reflects the difference in
meaning.. You and Stephan are only speculating, unless you can produce
Matthew's autograph of the gospel in Aramaic.
Yeah, he knew that Jesus spoke Aramaic, and the best he could do is to render it
as "petros/petra", neither of which is "rock".


duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
Whazit Tooyah
2006-08-15 03:53:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Acts 15 shows more evidence that James was in charge of the Jerusalem
council than Peter.
Peter offers a compelling argument
Ac 15:7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them,
"Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that
by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
And there you have the culminating event of Simon Peter's elevation to the
Papacy.
Which is superseded by the rest of the context. It only works to elevate
Peter to the papacy if you ignore the rest of the passage, which you did by
deleting it from your reply to my post.
There is no way you can hide from the statement of Acts 15:7, even if they were
discussing who is #1 after the latest chariot races.
Nor is there any way you can ignore Acts 15:13-29 where James makes the
decision and the others concur and James' wording is used in the letter sent
to Antioch.
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Using the one verse at a time
method you are using, one can make the Bible support absolutely anything you
want it to. One can use the Bible one verse at a time to support suicide,
abortion, lying just to name a few that I can think of off the top of my
head.
Now add Mat 16 including Peter's direct communication with the Father, receiving
the keys to the kingdom, and to bind on earth to be so in heaven, plus the
primacy of Peter in the Gospels and you have a firm establishment of the new
Christian Church on earth led by man with Peter as the Pope.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Any reputable person will recommend reading 20 verses before and 20 verses a
cited verse to find out if the contextual reading of the verse supports the
statement made by the one citing the verse.
Then I recommend you read not 20 verses but the 4 gospels, the words of Jesus,
to establish the context. It jumps right out at you.
Read them many, many times. Jesus' central core of apostles was Peter,
James and John. Not Peter alone. BTW if Peter was an immovable rock (Matt
16) then you are Lady Godiva. (no pictures please)
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
In this case a contextual
reading of Acts 15 offers absolutely no support to the idea of Peter as
Pope. You are left with on very disputed verse in Matthew where Jesus says
You are Peter (a small stone) and upon this rock (bedrock, immovable rock) I
will build my church.
Yet Jesus didn't call him "peter", but Cephas, which in Aramaic means rock. And
the rock foundation of the human leadership when he Christ leaves is exactly
what he was calling for.
I don't find that in my Bible, not in Matthew. Like I said, don't you think
Matthew understood the differences in the wording Jesus used and related
them to us in his gospel. Why do you think they translated his name into
Petros a small stone instead of Petras an immovable rock. It is because
there is a difference that you don't understand in the Aramaic, or perhaps I
should say are unwilling to understand.
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
BTW, I don't buy the Aramaic argument either, unless
you can produce an Aramaic original of Matthew's gospel. Everything I can
find says it originated in Greek and was probably written to the church in
Antioch.
You still miss the point. Even if Matthew wrote in Greek, Jesus spoke Aramaic
making Matthew a 1st translation.
No, it is you who still misses the point. Matthew accurately translated
what Jesus said, including the differences in Petros and Petras. Matthew was
there, he heard what Jesus said, he understood what Jesus meant, he has
accurately rendered what Jesus said in Aramaic into Greek. Matthew was
writing under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Don't you get it yet. The
difference in wording is there because it was inspired by the Holy Spirit to
be there. It is not some fluke of mistranslation.
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
They cite the similarities in wording and sentence structure in
the synoptic gospels as evidence. If Matthew was in fact translated from
Aramaic into Greek (not likely),
Spoken in Aramaic and recorded in Greek.
Makes no difference if it was recorded under the inspiration of the Holy
Spitit.
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
it was done by somebody who understood
Aramaic of the 1st century and understood the subtle differences in the
words Jesus said and reflected it in the Greek
Understood, smuderstood. Accept the facts.
I do, the Bible front to back is written under the guidence and inspiration
of the Holy Spirit. One can go back to the original written language and
study word meanings, but one can't say 'that was originally spoken in a
different language so I can come up with a meaning that suits my beliefs.'
Which is what you have done.
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Since Matthew was there, he
knew what Jesus meant and his usage of words reflects the difference in
meaning.. You and Stephan are only speculating, unless you can produce
Matthew's autograph of the gospel in Aramaic.
Yeah, he knew that Jesus spoke Aramaic, and the best he could do is to render it
as "petros/petra", neither of which is "rock".
Now you are just being stupid. Under the guidance of the Holy Spirit Matthew
accurately relayed Jesus' meaning.
--
WT

By this all men will know that you are My disciples,
if you have love for one another
Stephen Korsman
2006-08-15 17:54:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Acts 15 shows more evidence that James was in charge of the Jerusalem
council than Peter.
Peter offers a compelling argument
Ac 15:7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them,
"Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among
you,
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
that
by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
And there you have the culminating event of Simon Peter's elevation to the
Papacy.
Which is superseded by the rest of the context. It only works to elevate
Peter to the papacy if you ignore the rest of the passage, which you did by
deleting it from your reply to my post.
There is no way you can hide from the statement of Acts 15:7, even if
they
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
were
discussing who is #1 after the latest chariot races.
Nor is there any way you can ignore Acts 15:13-29 where James makes the
decision and the others concur and James' wording is used in the letter sent
to Antioch.
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Using the one verse at a time
method you are using, one can make the Bible support absolutely anything you
want it to. One can use the Bible one verse at a time to support suicide,
abortion, lying just to name a few that I can think of off the top of my
head.
Now add Mat 16 including Peter's direct communication with the Father, receiving
the keys to the kingdom, and to bind on earth to be so in heaven, plus the
primacy of Peter in the Gospels and you have a firm establishment of the new
Christian Church on earth led by man with Peter as the Pope.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Any reputable person will recommend reading 20 verses before and 20
verses
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
a
cited verse to find out if the contextual reading of the verse supports the
statement made by the one citing the verse.
Then I recommend you read not 20 verses but the 4 gospels, the words of Jesus,
to establish the context. It jumps right out at you.
Read them many, many times. Jesus' central core of apostles was Peter,
James and John. Not Peter alone. BTW if Peter was an immovable rock (Matt
16) then you are Lady Godiva. (no pictures please)
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
In this case a contextual
reading of Acts 15 offers absolutely no support to the idea of Peter as
Pope. You are left with on very disputed verse in Matthew where Jesus says
You are Peter (a small stone) and upon this rock (bedrock, immovable
rock)
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
I
will build my church.
Yet Jesus didn't call him "peter", but Cephas, which in Aramaic means rock. And
the rock foundation of the human leadership when he Christ leaves is exactly
what he was calling for.
I don't find that in my Bible, not in Matthew. Like I said, don't you think
Matthew understood the differences in the wording Jesus used and related
them to us in his gospel. Why do you think they translated his name into
Petros a small stone instead of Petras an immovable rock.
Petros and Petra are synonyms. The distinction in size is from an earlier
dialect of Greek, not Koine Greek. Tha dialect the New Testament was
written in does not use the two words to differentiate between different
sized rocks. If Jesus had meant that petros was a small stone, he would
have named Peter "evna", which means what you say petros means and not
"kephas", which means what you say petra means.

Some Protestant scholars on the petros/petra issue:

Although it is true that petros and petra can mean "stone" and "rock"
respectively in earlier Greek, the distinction is largely confined to
poetry. Moreover the underlying Aramaic is in this case unquestionable; and
most probably kepha was used in both clauses ("you are kepha" and "on this
kepha"), since the word was used both for a name and for a "rock." The
Peshitta (written in Syriac, a language cognate with Aramaic) makes no
distinction between the words in the two clauses. The Greek makes the
distinction between petros and petra simply because it is trying to preserve
the pun, and in Greek the feminine petra could not very well serve as a
masculine name. . . Had Matthew wanted to say no more than that Peter was a
stone in contrast with Jesus the Rock, the more common word would have been
lithos ("stone" of almost any size).
- D.A. Carson, The Expositor's Bible Commentary, Volume 8 (Matthew, Mark,
Luke), ed. Frank E. Gaebelein, (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1984), 368.

The Aramaic original of the saying enables us to assert with confidence the
formal and material identity between p tra petra and P tros; P tros = p tra.
. . . The idea of the Reformers that He is referring to the faith of Peter
is quite inconceivable . . . for there is no reference here to the faith of
Peter. Rather, the parallelism of "thou art Rock" and "on this rock I will
build" shows that the second rock can only be the same as the first . It is
thus evident that Jesus is referring to Peter, to whom he has given the name
Rock. . . . To this extent Roman Catholic exegesis is right and all
Protestant attempts to evade this interpretation are to be rejected.
- Oscar Cullman, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, ed. by
Gerhard Kittel and Gerhard Friedrich, (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans,
1968), 6:98, 108.

The word refers neither to Christ as a rock, distinguished from Simon, a
stone, nor to Peter's confession, but to Peter himself, ... The reference of
petra to Christ is forced and unnatural. The obvious reference of the word
is to Peter. The emphatic this naturally refers to the nearest antecedent;
and besides, the metaphor is thus weakened, since Christ appears here, not
as the foundation, but as the architect: "On this rock will I build." Again,
Christ is the great foundation, the chief cornerstone, but the New Testament
writers recognize no impropriety in applying to the members of Christ's
church certain terms which are applied to him. For instance, Peter himself
(1 Peter 2:4), calls Christ a living stone, and in ver. 5, addresses the
church as living stones.
- Marvin R. Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament, (Grand Rapids,
MI: Eerdmans, 1946 (orig. 1887)), 4 vols., vol. 1, 91-92.

This is not a name, but an appellation and a play on words. There is no
evidence of Peter or Kephas as a name before Christian times. . . . Peter as
Rock will be the foundation of the future community. Jesus, not quoting the
Old Testament, here uses Aramaic, not Hebrew, and so uses the only Aramaic
word which would serve his purpose. In view of the background of vs. 19, one
must dismiss as confessional interpretation any attempt to see this rock as
meaning the faith, or the Messianic confession, of Peter. To deny the
pre-eminent position of Peter among the disciples or in the early Christian
community is a denial of the evidence. The interest in Peter's failures and
vacillations does not detract from this pre-eminence; rather, it emphasizes
it. Had Peter been a lesser figure his behavior would have been of far less
consequence (cp. Gal 2:11 ff.).
- W. F. Albright and C. S. Mann, Matthew (Garden City, NY: Doubleday &
Co., 1971), 195.

It is on Peter himself, the confessor of his Messiahship, that Jesus will
build the Church. . . . Attempts to interpret the 'rock' as something other
than Peter in person (e.g. his faith, the truth revealed to him) are due to
Protestant bias, and introduce to the statement a degree of subtlety which
is highly unlikely.
- David Hill, The Gospel of Matthew (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1972),
261.

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

IC | XC
---------
NI | KA

add an s before .co.za
Whazit Tooyah
2006-08-16 13:34:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Acts 15 shows more evidence that James was in charge of the Jerusalem
council than Peter.
Peter offers a compelling argument
Ac 15:7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them,
"Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among
you,
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
that
by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and
believe.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
And there you have the culminating event of Simon Peter's elevation
to
the
Papacy.
Which is superseded by the rest of the context. It only works to
elevate
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Peter to the papacy if you ignore the rest of the passage, which you
did
by
deleting it from your reply to my post.
There is no way you can hide from the statement of Acts 15:7, even if
they
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
were
discussing who is #1 after the latest chariot races.
Nor is there any way you can ignore Acts 15:13-29 where James makes the
decision and the others concur and James' wording is used in the letter
sent
Post by Whazit Tooyah
to Antioch.
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Using the one verse at a time
method you are using, one can make the Bible support absolutely
anything
you
want it to. One can use the Bible one verse at a time to support
suicide,
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
abortion, lying just to name a few that I can think of off the top of my
head.
Now add Mat 16 including Peter's direct communication with the Father, receiving
the keys to the kingdom, and to bind on earth to be so in heaven, plus
the
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
primacy of Peter in the Gospels and you have a firm establishment of
the
new
Christian Church on earth led by man with Peter as the Pope.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Any reputable person will recommend reading 20 verses before and 20
verses
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
a
cited verse to find out if the contextual reading of the verse supports the
statement made by the one citing the verse.
Then I recommend you read not 20 verses but the 4 gospels, the words of Jesus,
to establish the context. It jumps right out at you.
Read them many, many times. Jesus' central core of apostles was Peter,
James and John. Not Peter alone. BTW if Peter was an immovable rock
(Matt
Post by Whazit Tooyah
16) then you are Lady Godiva. (no pictures please)
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
In this case a contextual
reading of Acts 15 offers absolutely no support to the idea of Peter as
Pope. You are left with on very disputed verse in Matthew where Jesus says
You are Peter (a small stone) and upon this rock (bedrock, immovable
rock)
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
I
will build my church.
Yet Jesus didn't call him "peter", but Cephas, which in Aramaic means rock. And
the rock foundation of the human leadership when he Christ leaves is exactly
what he was calling for.
I don't find that in my Bible, not in Matthew. Like I said, don't you
think
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Matthew understood the differences in the wording Jesus used and related
them to us in his gospel. Why do you think they translated his name into
Petros a small stone instead of Petras an immovable rock.
Petros and Petra are synonyms.
Not supported in the research I have done.
Post by Stephen Korsman
The distinction in size is from an earlier
dialect of Greek, not Koine Greek. Tha dialect the New Testament was
written in does not use the two words to differentiate between different
sized rocks. If Jesus had meant that petros was a small stone, he would
have named Peter "evna", which means what you say petros means and not
"kephas", which means what you say petra means.
Although it is true that petros and petra can mean "stone" and "rock"
respectively in earlier Greek, the distinction is largely confined to
poetry. Moreover the underlying Aramaic is in this case unquestionable; and
most probably kepha was used in both clauses ("you are kepha" and "on this
kepha"), since the word was used both for a name and for a "rock." The
Peshitta (written in Syriac, a language cognate with Aramaic) makes no
distinction between the words in the two clauses. The Greek makes the
distinction between petros and petra simply because it is trying to preserve
the pun, and in Greek the feminine petra could not very well serve as a
masculine name. . . Had Matthew wanted to say no more than that Peter was a
stone in contrast with Jesus the Rock, the more common word would have been
lithos ("stone" of almost any size).
- D.A. Carson, The Expositor's Bible Commentary, Volume 8 (Matthew, Mark,
Luke), ed. Frank E. Gaebelein, (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1984), 368.
The Aramaic original of the saying
Unless one was standing beside Jesus or Peter one cannot say exactly what
the Aramaic original was saying. There is more in a phrase than just the
words used, there is tone, inflection, body language etc. Matthew gives us
the meaning of Jesus' statement when he differentiates between a small rock
and a bedrock.
Post by Stephen Korsman
enables us to assert with confidence the
formal and material identity between p tra petra and P tros; P tros = p tra.
. . . The idea of the Reformers that He is referring to the faith of Peter
is quite inconceivable . . . for there is no reference here to the faith of
Peter. Rather, the parallelism of "thou art Rock" and "on this rock I will
build" shows that the second rock can only be the same as the first . It is
thus evident that Jesus is referring to Peter, to whom he has given the name
Rock. . . . To this extent Roman Catholic exegesis is right and all
Protestant attempts to evade this interpretation are to be rejected.
- Oscar Cullman, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, ed. by
Gerhard Kittel and Gerhard Friedrich, (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans,
1968), 6:98, 108.
The word refers neither to Christ as a rock, distinguished from Simon, a
stone, nor to Peter's confession, but to Peter himself, ... The reference of
petra to Christ is forced and unnatural. The obvious reference of the word
is to Peter. The emphatic this naturally refers to the nearest antecedent;
and besides, the metaphor is thus weakened, since Christ appears here, not
as the foundation, but as the architect: "On this rock will I build." Again,
Christ is the great foundation, the chief cornerstone, but the New Testament
writers recognize no impropriety in applying to the members of Christ's
church certain terms which are applied to him. For instance, Peter himself
(1 Peter 2:4), calls Christ a living stone, and in ver. 5, addresses the
church as living stones.
- Marvin R. Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament, (Grand Rapids,
MI: Eerdmans, 1946 (orig. 1887)), 4 vols., vol. 1, 91-92.
This is not a name, but an appellation and a play on words. There is no
evidence of Peter or Kephas as a name before Christian times. . . . Peter as
Rock will be the foundation of the future community. Jesus, not quoting the
Old Testament, here uses Aramaic, not Hebrew, and so uses the only Aramaic
word which would serve his purpose. In view of the background of vs. 19, one
must dismiss as confessional interpretation any attempt to see this rock as
meaning the faith, or the Messianic confession, of Peter. To deny the
pre-eminent position of Peter among the disciples or in the early Christian
community is a denial of the evidence. The interest in Peter's failures and
vacillations does not detract from this pre-eminence; rather, it emphasizes
it. Had Peter been a lesser figure his behavior would have been of far less
consequence (cp. Gal 2:11 ff.).
- W. F. Albright and C. S. Mann, Matthew (Garden City, NY: Doubleday &
Co., 1971), 195.
It is on Peter himself, the confessor of his Messiahship, that Jesus will
build the Church. . . . Attempts to interpret the 'rock' as something other
than Peter in person (e.g. his faith, the truth revealed to him) are due to
Protestant bias, and introduce to the statement a degree of subtlety which
is highly unlikely.
- David Hill, The Gospel of Matthew (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1972),
261.
1. petra (4073) denotes "a mass of rock," as distinct from petros, "a
detached stone or boulder," or a stone that might be thrown or easily moved.
For the nature of petra, see Matt. 7:24, 25; 27:51, 60; Mark 15:46; Luke
6:48 (twice), a type of a sure foundation (here the true reading is as in
the rv, "because it had been well builded"); Rev. 6:15, 16 (cf. Isa.
2:19,ff.; Hos. 10:8); Luke 8:6, 13, used illustratively; 1 Cor. 10:4
(twice), figuratively, of Christ; in Rom. 9:33 and 1 Pet. 2:8,
metaphorically, of Christ; in Matt. 16:18, metaphorically, of Christ and the
testimony concerning Him; here the distinction between petra, concerning the
Lord Himself, and Petros, the apostle, is clear (see above).¶
Vine's complete expository dictionary of Old and New Testament words


4073. ????? petra, petŽ-ra; fem. of the same as 4074; a (mass of) rock
(lit. or fig.):- rock.

4074. ?????? Petros, petŽ-ros; appar. a primary word; a (piece of) rock
(larger than 3037); as a name, Petrus, an apostle:- Peter, rock. comp. 2786.

The new Strong's dictionary of Hebrew and Greek words


Let us look at this verse carefully. On what rock did Jesus build His
church? There are those who say that it was built on Simon Peter. Well,
obviously it was not, because there is a play upon words here. In the
original Greek it is, "Thou art Petros [a little piece of rock], and upon
this petra [bedrock] I will build my church." There are others who hold that
Christ is building His church upon the confession that Simon Peter made. I
don't agree with that at all.

Who is the Rock? The Rock is Christ. The church is built upon Christ. We
have Simon Peter's own explanation of this. In 1 Peter 2:4, referring to
Christ, he writes, "To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed
indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious." And he remembers Isaiah
28:16, ". Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and
he that believeth on him shall not be confounded" (1 Pet. 2:6). The church
is built upon Christ; He is the foundation. "For other foundation can no man
lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ"

McGee, J. Vernon, 1997
Thru the Bible commentary

I don't know the resources you quoted and therefore I don't trust them
either. I know and trust the resources I quoted. I checked the two other
commentaries that I have and could find no support for Jesus building His
church on Peter. What's more, I am familiar with the New Testament and it
offers no support for the church being built on Peter. What I have seen is
offered as support is Matthew 16:18 which is questionable at best, and Acts
15:7-11 which is only Peter offering testimony, the passage as a whole
doesn't support Peter as the leader, but rather it supports James as the
leader of the Jerusalem council.
--
WT

By this all men will know that you are My disciples,
if you have love for one another
Stephen Korsman
2006-08-16 17:42:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Acts 15 shows more evidence that James was in charge of the Jerusalem
council than Peter.
Peter offers a compelling argument
Ac 15:7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said
to
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
them,
"Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among
you,
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
that
by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and
believe.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
And there you have the culminating event of Simon Peter's elevation
to
the
Papacy.
Which is superseded by the rest of the context. It only works to
elevate
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Peter to the papacy if you ignore the rest of the passage, which you
did
by
deleting it from your reply to my post.
There is no way you can hide from the statement of Acts 15:7, even if
they
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
were
discussing who is #1 after the latest chariot races.
Nor is there any way you can ignore Acts 15:13-29 where James makes the
decision and the others concur and James' wording is used in the letter
sent
Post by Whazit Tooyah
to Antioch.
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Using the one verse at a time
method you are using, one can make the Bible support absolutely
anything
you
want it to. One can use the Bible one verse at a time to support
suicide,
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
abortion, lying just to name a few that I can think of off the top of my
head.
Now add Mat 16 including Peter's direct communication with the
Father,
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
receiving
the keys to the kingdom, and to bind on earth to be so in heaven, plus
the
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
primacy of Peter in the Gospels and you have a firm establishment of
the
new
Christian Church on earth led by man with Peter as the Pope.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Any reputable person will recommend reading 20 verses before and 20
verses
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
a
cited verse to find out if the contextual reading of the verse
supports
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
the
statement made by the one citing the verse.
Then I recommend you read not 20 verses but the 4 gospels, the words
of
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Jesus,
to establish the context. It jumps right out at you.
Read them many, many times. Jesus' central core of apostles was Peter,
James and John. Not Peter alone. BTW if Peter was an immovable rock
(Matt
Post by Whazit Tooyah
16) then you are Lady Godiva. (no pictures please)
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
In this case a contextual
reading of Acts 15 offers absolutely no support to the idea of Peter as
Pope. You are left with on very disputed verse in Matthew where
Jesus
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
says
You are Peter (a small stone) and upon this rock (bedrock, immovable
rock)
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
I
will build my church.
Yet Jesus didn't call him "peter", but Cephas, which in Aramaic means rock. And
the rock foundation of the human leadership when he Christ leaves is exactly
what he was calling for.
I don't find that in my Bible, not in Matthew. Like I said, don't you
think
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Matthew understood the differences in the wording Jesus used and related
them to us in his gospel. Why do you think they translated his name into
Petros a small stone instead of Petras an immovable rock.
Petros and Petra are synonyms.
Not supported in the research I have done.
Post by Stephen Korsman
The distinction in size is from an earlier
dialect of Greek, not Koine Greek. Tha dialect the New Testament was
written in does not use the two words to differentiate between different
sized rocks. If Jesus had meant that petros was a small stone, he would
have named Peter "evna", which means what you say petros means and not
"kephas", which means what you say petra means.
Although it is true that petros and petra can mean "stone" and "rock"
respectively in earlier Greek, the distinction is largely confined to
poetry. Moreover the underlying Aramaic is in this case unquestionable; and
most probably kepha was used in both clauses ("you are kepha" and "on this
kepha"), since the word was used both for a name and for a "rock." The
Peshitta (written in Syriac, a language cognate with Aramaic) makes no
distinction between the words in the two clauses. The Greek makes the
distinction between petros and petra simply because it is trying to preserve
the pun, and in Greek the feminine petra could not very well serve as a
masculine name. . . Had Matthew wanted to say no more than that Peter
was
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
a
stone in contrast with Jesus the Rock, the more common word would have been
lithos ("stone" of almost any size).
- D.A. Carson, The Expositor's Bible Commentary, Volume 8 (Matthew, Mark,
Luke), ed. Frank E. Gaebelein, (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1984), 368.
The Aramaic original of the saying
Unless one was standing beside Jesus or Peter one cannot say exactly what
the Aramaic original was saying.
Peter's name in Aramaic is well established in the New Testament - Kephas.
It's hard to imagine that in this instance, another term was used.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
There is more in a phrase than just the
words used, there is tone, inflection, body language etc. Matthew gives us
the meaning of Jesus' statement when he differentiates between a small rock
and a bedrock.
The evidence that he differentiated in that way at all is flimsy.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
enables us to assert with confidence the
formal and material identity between p tra petra and P tros; P tros = p tra.
. . . The idea of the Reformers that He is referring to the faith of Peter
is quite inconceivable . . . for there is no reference here to the faith of
Peter. Rather, the parallelism of "thou art Rock" and "on this rock I will
build" shows that the second rock can only be the same as the first . It is
thus evident that Jesus is referring to Peter, to whom he has given the name
Rock. . . . To this extent Roman Catholic exegesis is right and all
Protestant attempts to evade this interpretation are to be rejected.
- Oscar Cullman, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, ed. by
Gerhard Kittel and Gerhard Friedrich, (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans,
1968), 6:98, 108.
The word refers neither to Christ as a rock, distinguished from Simon, a
stone, nor to Peter's confession, but to Peter himself, ... The
reference
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
of
petra to Christ is forced and unnatural. The obvious reference of the word
is to Peter. The emphatic this naturally refers to the nearest antecedent;
and besides, the metaphor is thus weakened, since Christ appears here, not
as the foundation, but as the architect: "On this rock will I build." Again,
Christ is the great foundation, the chief cornerstone, but the New Testament
writers recognize no impropriety in applying to the members of Christ's
church certain terms which are applied to him. For instance, Peter himself
(1 Peter 2:4), calls Christ a living stone, and in ver. 5, addresses the
church as living stones.
- Marvin R. Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament, (Grand Rapids,
MI: Eerdmans, 1946 (orig. 1887)), 4 vols., vol. 1, 91-92.
This is not a name, but an appellation and a play on words. There is no
evidence of Peter or Kephas as a name before Christian times. . . .
Peter
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
as
Rock will be the foundation of the future community. Jesus, not quoting the
Old Testament, here uses Aramaic, not Hebrew, and so uses the only Aramaic
word which would serve his purpose. In view of the background of vs. 19, one
must dismiss as confessional interpretation any attempt to see this rock as
meaning the faith, or the Messianic confession, of Peter. To deny the
pre-eminent position of Peter among the disciples or in the early Christian
community is a denial of the evidence. The interest in Peter's failures and
vacillations does not detract from this pre-eminence; rather, it emphasizes
it. Had Peter been a lesser figure his behavior would have been of far less
consequence (cp. Gal 2:11 ff.).
- W. F. Albright and C. S. Mann, Matthew (Garden City, NY: Doubleday &
Co., 1971), 195.
It is on Peter himself, the confessor of his Messiahship, that Jesus will
build the Church. . . . Attempts to interpret the 'rock' as something other
than Peter in person (e.g. his faith, the truth revealed to him) are due to
Protestant bias, and introduce to the statement a degree of subtlety which
is highly unlikely.
- David Hill, The Gospel of Matthew (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1972),
261.
1. petra (4073) denotes "a mass of rock," as distinct from petros, "a
detached stone or boulder," or a stone that might be thrown or easily moved.
For the nature of petra, see Matt. 7:24, 25; 27:51, 60; Mark 15:46; Luke
6:48 (twice), a type of a sure foundation (here the true reading is as in
the rv, "because it had been well builded"); Rev. 6:15, 16 (cf. Isa.
2:19,ff.; Hos. 10:8); Luke 8:6, 13, used illustratively; 1 Cor. 10:4
(twice), figuratively, of Christ; in Rom. 9:33 and 1 Pet. 2:8,
metaphorically, of Christ; in Matt. 16:18, metaphorically, of Christ and the
testimony concerning Him; here the distinction between petra, concerning the
Lord Himself, and Petros, the apostle, is clear (see above).¶
Vine's complete expository dictionary of Old and New Testament words
4073. ????? petra, petŽ-ra; fem. of the same as 4074; a (mass of) rock
(lit. or fig.):- rock.
4074. ?????? Petros, petŽ-ros; appar. a primary word; a (piece of) rock
(larger than 3037); as a name, Petrus, an apostle:- Peter, rock. comp. 2786.
The new Strong's dictionary of Hebrew and Greek words
A standard definition ... which is fine, until it is clarified with more
detail, which Carson does.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Let us look at this verse carefully. On what rock did Jesus build His
church? There are those who say that it was built on Simon Peter. Well,
obviously it was not, because there is a play upon words here.
The play on words is lost in the English, but very apparent on many other
languages, Aramaic being one. The play on words can be taken to expressly
show that Peter is the rock and Jesus the builder ... that is the most
natural interpretation in light of
Post by Whazit Tooyah
In the
original Greek it is, "Thou art Petros [a little piece of rock], and upon
this petra [bedrock] I will build my church."
The evidence is against that differentiation, and in favour of them being
equivalent terms.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
There are others who hold that
Christ is building His church upon the confession that Simon Peter made. I
don't agree with that at all.
Who is the Rock? The Rock is Christ. The church is built upon Christ. We
have Simon Peter's own explanation of this. In 1 Peter 2:4, referring to
Christ, he writes, "To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed
indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious."
We can't take one analogy and make it interpret a completely different
analogy. In Matt 16:18, Jesus is the builder. In 1 Peter 2, he's the
foundation, built on by the Father.

That Jesus is the rock in one place doesn't prevent Peter from being the
rock in Matt 16:18. Jesus is the light of the world, but so are we.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
And he remembers Isaiah
28:16, ". Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and
he that believeth on him shall not be confounded" (1 Pet. 2:6). The church
is built upon Christ; He is the foundation. "For other foundation can no man
lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ"
McGee, J. Vernon, 1997
Thru the Bible commentary
I don't know the resources you quoted and therefore I don't trust them
either.
Carson especially is a very well-known and well-respected source.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
I know and trust the resources I quoted. I checked the two other
commentaries that I have and could find no support for Jesus building His
church on Peter. What's more, I am familiar with the New Testament and it
offers no support for the church being built on Peter. What I have seen is
offered as support is Matthew 16:18 which is questionable at best, and Acts
15:7-11 which is only Peter offering testimony, the passage as a whole
doesn't support Peter as the leader, but rather it supports James as the
leader of the Jerusalem council.
I'd say that Matt 16:18 is pretty undeniable ... but questionable in the
sense that anything can be questioned. Acts 15 is more questionable, and
can reasonably be interpreted either way, although the idea that it supports
James as the leader has about as much evidence as the idea that it supports
Peter as the leader.

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

IC | XC
---------
NI | KA

add an s before .co.za
Whazit Tooyah
2006-08-17 03:28:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Acts 15 shows more evidence that James was in charge of the
Jerusalem
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
council than Peter.
Peter offers a compelling argument
Ac 15:7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said
to
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
them,
"Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among
you,
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
that
by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and
believe.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
And there you have the culminating event of Simon Peter's elevation
to
the
Papacy.
Which is superseded by the rest of the context. It only works to
elevate
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Peter to the papacy if you ignore the rest of the passage, which you
did
by
deleting it from your reply to my post.
There is no way you can hide from the statement of Acts 15:7, even if
they
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
were
discussing who is #1 after the latest chariot races.
Nor is there any way you can ignore Acts 15:13-29 where James makes
the
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Whazit Tooyah
decision and the others concur and James' wording is used in the letter
sent
Post by Whazit Tooyah
to Antioch.
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Using the one verse at a time
method you are using, one can make the Bible support absolutely
anything
you
want it to. One can use the Bible one verse at a time to support
suicide,
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
abortion, lying just to name a few that I can think of off the top
of
my
head.
Now add Mat 16 including Peter's direct communication with the
Father,
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
receiving
the keys to the kingdom, and to bind on earth to be so in heaven,
plus
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
the
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
primacy of Peter in the Gospels and you have a firm establishment of
the
new
Christian Church on earth led by man with Peter as the Pope.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Any reputable person will recommend reading 20 verses before and 20
verses
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
a
cited verse to find out if the contextual reading of the verse
supports
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
the
statement made by the one citing the verse.
Then I recommend you read not 20 verses but the 4 gospels, the words
of
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Jesus,
to establish the context. It jumps right out at you.
Read them many, many times. Jesus' central core of apostles was Peter,
James and John. Not Peter alone. BTW if Peter was an immovable rock
(Matt
Post by Whazit Tooyah
16) then you are Lady Godiva. (no pictures please)
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
In this case a contextual
reading of Acts 15 offers absolutely no support to the idea of Peter
as
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Pope. You are left with on very disputed verse in Matthew where
Jesus
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
says
You are Peter (a small stone) and upon this rock (bedrock, immovable
rock)
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by duke
Post by Whazit Tooyah
I
will build my church.
Yet Jesus didn't call him "peter", but Cephas, which in Aramaic
means
rock. And
the rock foundation of the human leadership when he Christ leaves is exactly
what he was calling for.
I don't find that in my Bible, not in Matthew. Like I said, don't you
think
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Matthew understood the differences in the wording Jesus used and
related
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Whazit Tooyah
them to us in his gospel. Why do you think they translated his name
into
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Petros a small stone instead of Petras an immovable rock.
Petros and Petra are synonyms.
Not supported in the research I have done.
Post by Stephen Korsman
The distinction in size is from an earlier
dialect of Greek, not Koine Greek. Tha dialect the New Testament was
written in does not use the two words to differentiate between different
sized rocks. If Jesus had meant that petros was a small stone, he would
have named Peter "evna", which means what you say petros means and not
"kephas", which means what you say petra means.
Although it is true that petros and petra can mean "stone" and "rock"
respectively in earlier Greek, the distinction is largely confined to
poetry. Moreover the underlying Aramaic is in this case unquestionable; and
most probably kepha was used in both clauses ("you are kepha" and "on
this
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
kepha"), since the word was used both for a name and for a "rock." The
Peshitta (written in Syriac, a language cognate with Aramaic) makes no
distinction between the words in the two clauses. The Greek makes the
distinction between petros and petra simply because it is trying to preserve
the pun, and in Greek the feminine petra could not very well serve as a
masculine name. . . Had Matthew wanted to say no more than that Peter
was
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
a
stone in contrast with Jesus the Rock, the more common word would have been
lithos ("stone" of almost any size).
- D.A. Carson, The Expositor's Bible Commentary, Volume 8 (Matthew, Mark,
Luke), ed. Frank E. Gaebelein, (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1984), 368.
The Aramaic original of the saying
Unless one was standing beside Jesus or Peter one cannot say exactly what
the Aramaic original was saying.
Peter's name in Aramaic is well established in the New Testament - Kephas.
It's hard to imagine that in this instance, another term was used.
Speculating on the exact meaning of the Aramaic is pointless since we don't
have the original written in Aramaic. I once speculated that in Matthew 11
Jesus said 'come to me and I will give you shabat.' A possability, but
pointless to discuss since all we have is the Greek.
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
There is more in a phrase than just the
words used, there is tone, inflection, body language etc. Matthew gives
us
Post by Whazit Tooyah
the meaning of Jesus' statement when he differentiates between a small
rock
Post by Whazit Tooyah
and a bedrock.
The evidence that he differentiated in that way at all is flimsy.
Except that is the way Mathew seems to have recorded it. If Matthew was
originally written in Greek under the guidance of the Holy Spirit then I
would say that the evidence is rather strong.
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
enables us to assert with confidence the
formal and material identity between p tra petra and P tros; P tros = p tra.
. . . The idea of the Reformers that He is referring to the faith of
Peter
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
is quite inconceivable . . . for there is no reference here to the
faith
of
Peter. Rather, the parallelism of "thou art Rock" and "on this rock I
will
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
build" shows that the second rock can only be the same as the first .
It
is
thus evident that Jesus is referring to Peter, to whom he has given the name
Rock. . . . To this extent Roman Catholic exegesis is right and all
Protestant attempts to evade this interpretation are to be rejected.
- Oscar Cullman, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, ed. by
Gerhard Kittel and Gerhard Friedrich, (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B.
Eerdmans,
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
1968), 6:98, 108.
The word refers neither to Christ as a rock, distinguished from Simon, a
stone, nor to Peter's confession, but to Peter himself, ... The
reference
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
of
petra to Christ is forced and unnatural. The obvious reference of the
word
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
is to Peter. The emphatic this naturally refers to the nearest
antecedent;
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
and besides, the metaphor is thus weakened, since Christ appears here,
not
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Post by Stephen Korsman
as the foundation, but as the architect: "On this rock will I build." Again,
Christ is the great foundation, the chief cornerstone, but the New Testament
writers recognize no impropriety in applying to the members of Christ's
church certain terms which are applied to him. For instance, Peter
himself
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
(1 Peter 2:4), calls Christ a living stone, and in ver. 5, addresses the
church as living stones.
- Marvin R. Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament, (Grand Rapids,
MI: Eerdmans, 1946 (orig. 1887)), 4 vols., vol. 1, 91-92.
This is not a name, but an appellation and a play on words. There is no
evidence of Peter or Kephas as a name before Christian times. . . .
Peter
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
as
Rock will be the foundation of the future community. Jesus, not quoting the
Old Testament, here uses Aramaic, not Hebrew, and so uses the only
Aramaic
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Post by Stephen Korsman
word which would serve his purpose. In view of the background of vs.
19,
one
must dismiss as confessional interpretation any attempt to see this
rock
as
meaning the faith, or the Messianic confession, of Peter. To deny the
pre-eminent position of Peter among the disciples or in the early Christian
community is a denial of the evidence. The interest in Peter's failures and
vacillations does not detract from this pre-eminence; rather, it emphasizes
it. Had Peter been a lesser figure his behavior would have been of far less
consequence (cp. Gal 2:11 ff.).
- W. F. Albright and C. S. Mann, Matthew (Garden City, NY: Doubleday &
Co., 1971), 195.
It is on Peter himself, the confessor of his Messiahship, that Jesus
will
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
build the Church. . . . Attempts to interpret the 'rock' as something other
than Peter in person (e.g. his faith, the truth revealed to him) are
due
to
Protestant bias, and introduce to the statement a degree of subtlety
which
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
is highly unlikely.
- David Hill, The Gospel of Matthew (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans,
1972),
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Post by Stephen Korsman
261.
1. petra (4073) denotes "a mass of rock," as distinct from petros, "a
detached stone or boulder," or a stone that might be thrown or easily
moved.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
For the nature of petra, see Matt. 7:24, 25; 27:51, 60; Mark 15:46; Luke
6:48 (twice), a type of a sure foundation (here the true reading is as in
the rv, "because it had been well builded"); Rev. 6:15, 16 (cf. Isa.
2:19,ff.; Hos. 10:8); Luke 8:6, 13, used illustratively; 1 Cor. 10:4
(twice), figuratively, of Christ; in Rom. 9:33 and 1 Pet. 2:8,
metaphorically, of Christ; in Matt. 16:18, metaphorically, of Christ and
the
Post by Whazit Tooyah
testimony concerning Him; here the distinction between petra, concerning
the
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Lord Himself, and Petros, the apostle, is clear (see above).¶
Vine's complete expository dictionary of Old and New Testament words
4073. ????? petra, petŽ-ra; fem. of the same as 4074; a (mass of) rock
(lit. or fig.):- rock.
4074. ?????? Petros, petŽ-ros; appar. a primary word; a (piece of)
rock
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(larger than 3037); as a name, Petrus, an apostle:- Peter, rock. comp.
2786.
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The new Strong's dictionary of Hebrew and Greek words
A standard definition ... which is fine, until it is clarified with more
detail, which Carson does.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Let us look at this verse carefully. On what rock did Jesus build His
church? There are those who say that it was built on Simon Peter. Well,
obviously it was not, because there is a play upon words here.
The play on words is lost in the English, but very apparent on many other
languages, Aramaic being one. The play on words can be taken to expressly
show that Peter is the rock and Jesus the builder ... that is the most
natural interpretation in light of.
But since in reality Peter can hardly be shown to be a rock, perhaps his
nickname is a play on words itself. The Atamaic argument is pointless.
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
In the
original Greek it is, "Thou art Petros [a little piece of rock], and upon
this petra [bedrock] I will build my church."
The evidence is against that differentiation, and in favour of them being
equivalent terms.
Both are from the same root. But if I ask you to picture a rock wall and
then picture the rock of Gibraltar or Ayers rock, you picture two different
sizes of rock. Petra and petros, both rocks, but slightly different.
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
There are others who hold that
Christ is building His church upon the confession that Simon Peter made. I
don't agree with that at all.
Who is the Rock? The Rock is Christ. The church is built upon Christ. We
have Simon Peter's own explanation of this. In 1 Peter 2:4, referring to
Christ, he writes, "To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed
indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious."
We can't take one analogy and make it interpret a completely different
analogy. In Matt 16:18, Jesus is the builder. In 1 Peter 2, he's the
foundation, built on by the Father.
That Jesus is the rock in one place doesn't prevent Peter from being the
rock in Matt 16:18. Jesus is the light of the world, but so are we.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
And he remembers Isaiah
28:16, ". Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and
he that believeth on him shall not be confounded" (1 Pet. 2:6). The church
is built upon Christ; He is the foundation. "For other foundation can no
man
Post by Whazit Tooyah
lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ"
McGee, J. Vernon, 1997
Thru the Bible commentary
I don't know the resources you quoted and therefore I don't trust them
either.
Carson especially is a very well-known and well-respected source.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
I know and trust the resources I quoted. I checked the two other
commentaries that I have and could find no support for Jesus building His
church on Peter. What's more, I am familiar with the New Testament and it
offers no support for the church being built on Peter. What I have seen
is
Post by Whazit Tooyah
offered as support is Matthew 16:18 which is questionable at best, and
Acts
Post by Whazit Tooyah
15:7-11 which is only Peter offering testimony, the passage as a whole
doesn't support Peter as the leader, but rather it supports James as the
leader of the Jerusalem council.
I'd say that Matt 16:18 is pretty undeniable ... but questionable in the
sense that anything can be questioned. Acts 15 is more questionable, and
can reasonably be interpreted either way, although the idea that it supports
James as the leader has about as much evidence as the idea that it supports
Peter as the leader.
Matthew 16 may set Peter as a leader at that time. What I found particular
interesting was Matt 16:19. I was so hoping to find that Jesus was giving
the keys to the disciples, but it seems not to be the case. According to my
Biblical Greek program Jesus used a singular personal pronoun rather than a
plural, (translated as "you") In verses before and after when Jesus was
addressing the group He used a plural pronoun. But when He said whatever
you loose or bind on earth shall be loosed or bound in heaven, I found that
this was not Jesus giving Peter authority over scripture and Law. According
to what I found Jesus was saying that whatever Peter loosed or bound had
already been loosed or bound in heaven. Basically saying that Peter was
going to be guided in his teaching.and that he would not be allowed to step
beyond God's will.

What hasn't been shown in this discussion is any Biblical support for
Peter's leadership and authority being passed down through time. Nor have I
seen any evidence of Peter as the head of the New Testament church. The
strongest evidences of that are Peter's sermon in Acts 2 and Peter's
testimony before the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15. As you admitted the
latter is not all that strong.

Reading the Bible and the Bible alone it would seem that Paul was the de
facto head of the New Testament Church. Had the Roman Catholic Church
chosen Paul as the first Pope, it would have a far stronger case in my
opinion. Everything from Paul's special calling to Paul's authorship of
much of the teaching for the church indicates Paul's authority. Even his
public denunciation of Peter as recorded in Gal 2 indicates that Peter was
not considered to be the leader of the church.

Probably enough discussion on this.
I have to say Stephan that I enjoy these exchanges with you. You are
challenging, thoughtful, respectful and polite -- attributes that I wished
were more common in these newsgroups. Too often the discussions are full of
hyperbole and ad homonym.
--
WT

By this all men will know that you are My disciples,
if you have love for one another
Stephen Korsman
2006-08-17 19:13:41 UTC
Permalink
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Acts 15 shows more evidence that James was in charge of the
Jerusalem
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council than Peter.
Peter offers a compelling argument
Ac 15:7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said
to
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them,
"Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among
you,
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that
by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and
believe.
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And there you have the culminating event of Simon Peter's elevation
to
the
Papacy.
Which is superseded by the rest of the context. It only works to
elevate
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Peter to the papacy if you ignore the rest of the passage, which you
did
by
deleting it from your reply to my post.
There is no way you can hide from the statement of Acts 15:7, even if
they
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Post by duke
were
discussing who is #1 after the latest chariot races.
Nor is there any way you can ignore Acts 15:13-29 where James makes
the
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decision and the others concur and James' wording is used in the letter
sent
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to Antioch.
Post by duke
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Using the one verse at a time
method you are using, one can make the Bible support absolutely
anything
you
want it to. One can use the Bible one verse at a time to support
suicide,
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abortion, lying just to name a few that I can think of off the top
of
my
head.
Now add Mat 16 including Peter's direct communication with the
Father,
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receiving
the keys to the kingdom, and to bind on earth to be so in heaven,
plus
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the
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primacy of Peter in the Gospels and you have a firm establishment of
the
new
Christian Church on earth led by man with Peter as the Pope.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Any reputable person will recommend reading 20 verses before and 20
verses
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a
cited verse to find out if the contextual reading of the verse
supports
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the
statement made by the one citing the verse.
Then I recommend you read not 20 verses but the 4 gospels, the words
of
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Jesus,
to establish the context. It jumps right out at you.
Read them many, many times. Jesus' central core of apostles was Peter,
James and John. Not Peter alone. BTW if Peter was an immovable rock
(Matt
Post by Whazit Tooyah
16) then you are Lady Godiva. (no pictures please)
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In this case a contextual
reading of Acts 15 offers absolutely no support to the idea of Peter
as
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Pope. You are left with on very disputed verse in Matthew where
Jesus
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says
You are Peter (a small stone) and upon this rock (bedrock, immovable
rock)
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I
will build my church.
Yet Jesus didn't call him "peter", but Cephas, which in Aramaic
means
rock. And
the rock foundation of the human leadership when he Christ leaves
is
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exactly
what he was calling for.
I don't find that in my Bible, not in Matthew. Like I said, don't you
think
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Matthew understood the differences in the wording Jesus used and
related
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them to us in his gospel. Why do you think they translated his name
into
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Post by Stephen Korsman
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Petros a small stone instead of Petras an immovable rock.
Petros and Petra are synonyms.
Not supported in the research I have done.
Post by Stephen Korsman
The distinction in size is from an earlier
dialect of Greek, not Koine Greek. Tha dialect the New Testament was
written in does not use the two words to differentiate between different
sized rocks. If Jesus had meant that petros was a small stone, he would
have named Peter "evna", which means what you say petros means and not
"kephas", which means what you say petra means.
Although it is true that petros and petra can mean "stone" and "rock"
respectively in earlier Greek, the distinction is largely confined to
poetry. Moreover the underlying Aramaic is in this case
unquestionable;
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
and
most probably kepha was used in both clauses ("you are kepha" and "on
this
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
kepha"), since the word was used both for a name and for a "rock." The
Peshitta (written in Syriac, a language cognate with Aramaic) makes no
distinction between the words in the two clauses. The Greek makes the
distinction between petros and petra simply because it is trying to preserve
the pun, and in Greek the feminine petra could not very well serve as a
masculine name. . . Had Matthew wanted to say no more than that Peter
was
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
a
stone in contrast with Jesus the Rock, the more common word would
have
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
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Post by Stephen Korsman
been
lithos ("stone" of almost any size).
- D.A. Carson, The Expositor's Bible Commentary, Volume 8 (Matthew, Mark,
Luke), ed. Frank E. Gaebelein, (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1984), 368.
The Aramaic original of the saying
Unless one was standing beside Jesus or Peter one cannot say exactly what
the Aramaic original was saying.
Peter's name in Aramaic is well established in the New Testament - Kephas.
It's hard to imagine that in this instance, another term was used.
Speculating on the exact meaning of the Aramaic is pointless since we don't
have the original written in Aramaic. I once speculated that in Matthew 11
Jesus said 'come to me and I will give you shabat.' A possability, but
pointless to discuss since all we have is the Greek.
Peter was given a new name - Petros.

Peter was given a new name - Kephas.

Whether Jesus spoke Greek or Aramaic might be debatable, but that Petros
means Kephas is not - John 1:42 translates Kephas as Petros. Therefore in
Matt 16:18, "You are Petros" must be the equivalent of "You are Kephas."
The rock for a foundation can't be described as "evna" ... it had to be a
kephas, or else the entire differentiation you see would be reversed. Even
if Jesus spoke Greek, which is unlikely, the name Petros must have been
suitable for a foundation, since it was the equivalent of Kephas.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
There is more in a phrase than just the
words used, there is tone, inflection, body language etc. Matthew gives
us
Post by Whazit Tooyah
the meaning of Jesus' statement when he differentiates between a small
rock
Post by Whazit Tooyah
and a bedrock.
The evidence that he differentiated in that way at all is flimsy.
Except that is the way Mathew seems to have recorded it. If Matthew was
originally written in Greek under the guidance of the Holy Spirit then I
would say that the evidence is rather strong.
The difference between petros and petra comes from the need to agree with
"you" (masculine, petros) and "church" (feminine, petra.) The play on words
is not in the grammar requiring different endings to the word to reflect
gender, but in the identity of the words used. Seeing a major difference in
the words comes from reading it with an English background - our Bibles have
two very different words in that verse. In French and Aramaic, for example,
the words are identical. In Greek, they're identical except for the
grammatical need to assign gender.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
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Post by Stephen Korsman
enables us to assert with confidence the
formal and material identity between p tra petra and P tros; P tros =
p
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
tra.
. . . The idea of the Reformers that He is referring to the faith of
Peter
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
is quite inconceivable . . . for there is no reference here to the
faith
of
Peter. Rather, the parallelism of "thou art Rock" and "on this rock I
will
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
build" shows that the second rock can only be the same as the first .
It
is
thus evident that Jesus is referring to Peter, to whom he has given
the
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
name
Rock. . . . To this extent Roman Catholic exegesis is right and all
Protestant attempts to evade this interpretation are to be rejected.
- Oscar Cullman, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, ed. by
Gerhard Kittel and Gerhard Friedrich, (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B.
Eerdmans,
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
1968), 6:98, 108.
The word refers neither to Christ as a rock, distinguished from
Simon,
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
a
stone, nor to Peter's confession, but to Peter himself, ... The
reference
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
of
petra to Christ is forced and unnatural. The obvious reference of the
word
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
is to Peter. The emphatic this naturally refers to the nearest
antecedent;
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
and besides, the metaphor is thus weakened, since Christ appears here,
not
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
as the foundation, but as the architect: "On this rock will I build." Again,
Christ is the great foundation, the chief cornerstone, but the New Testament
writers recognize no impropriety in applying to the members of Christ's
church certain terms which are applied to him. For instance, Peter
himself
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
(1 Peter 2:4), calls Christ a living stone, and in ver. 5, addresses the
church as living stones.
- Marvin R. Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament, (Grand Rapids,
MI: Eerdmans, 1946 (orig. 1887)), 4 vols., vol. 1, 91-92.
This is not a name, but an appellation and a play on words. There is no
evidence of Peter or Kephas as a name before Christian times. . . .
Peter
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
as
Rock will be the foundation of the future community. Jesus, not
quoting
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
the
Old Testament, here uses Aramaic, not Hebrew, and so uses the only
Aramaic
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Post by Stephen Korsman
word which would serve his purpose. In view of the background of vs.
19,
one
must dismiss as confessional interpretation any attempt to see this
rock
as
meaning the faith, or the Messianic confession, of Peter. To deny the
pre-eminent position of Peter among the disciples or in the early Christian
community is a denial of the evidence. The interest in Peter's
failures
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
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Post by Stephen Korsman
and
vacillations does not detract from this pre-eminence; rather, it emphasizes
it. Had Peter been a lesser figure his behavior would have been of
far
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
less
consequence (cp. Gal 2:11 ff.).
Doubleday
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Post by I. B. Wonderin
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Post by Stephen Korsman
&
Co., 1971), 195.
It is on Peter himself, the confessor of his Messiahship, that Jesus
will
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
build the Church. . . . Attempts to interpret the 'rock' as something other
than Peter in person (e.g. his faith, the truth revealed to him) are
due
to
Protestant bias, and introduce to the statement a degree of subtlety
which
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
is highly unlikely.
- David Hill, The Gospel of Matthew (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans,
1972),
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Stephen Korsman
261.
1. petra (4073) denotes "a mass of rock," as distinct from petros, "a
detached stone or boulder," or a stone that might be thrown or easily
moved.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
For the nature of petra, see Matt. 7:24, 25; 27:51, 60; Mark 15:46; Luke
6:48 (twice), a type of a sure foundation (here the true reading is as in
the rv, "because it had been well builded"); Rev. 6:15, 16 (cf. Isa.
2:19,ff.; Hos. 10:8); Luke 8:6, 13, used illustratively; 1 Cor. 10:4
(twice), figuratively, of Christ; in Rom. 9:33 and 1 Pet. 2:8,
metaphorically, of Christ; in Matt. 16:18, metaphorically, of Christ and
the
Post by Whazit Tooyah
testimony concerning Him; here the distinction between petra, concerning
the
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Lord Himself, and Petros, the apostle, is clear (see above).¶
Vine's complete expository dictionary of Old and New Testament words
4073. ????? petra, petŽ-ra; fem. of the same as 4074; a (mass of) rock
(lit. or fig.):- rock.
4074. ?????? Petros, petŽ-ros; appar. a primary word; a (piece of)
rock
Post by Whazit Tooyah
(larger than 3037); as a name, Petrus, an apostle:- Peter, rock. comp.
2786.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
The new Strong's dictionary of Hebrew and Greek words
A standard definition ... which is fine, until it is clarified with more
detail, which Carson does.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Let us look at this verse carefully. On what rock did Jesus build His
church? There are those who say that it was built on Simon Peter. Well,
obviously it was not, because there is a play upon words here.
The play on words is lost in the English, but very apparent on many other
languages, Aramaic being one. The play on words can be taken to expressly
show that Peter is the rock and Jesus the builder ... that is the most
natural interpretation in light of.
But since in reality Peter can hardly be shown to be a rock, perhaps his
nickname is a play on words itself. The Atamaic argument is pointless.
On his own, Peter was not a rock. His original name was Simon. Had there
been a need to play on words, Simon, which means grains of sand, would have
been quite adequate. There would be no symbolism in changing Simon to
Petros if both were inadequate for a foundation. On Simon - sand - no
church could be built. On Peter/Kephas - rock - it could be. The
difference is not found in Peter's failing, his denial of Christ, etc., but
in what Christ made him into. On his own, he was Simon, but with the grace
of Christ, he could be Kephas.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
In the
original Greek it is, "Thou art Petros [a little piece of rock], and upon
this petra [bedrock] I will build my church."
The evidence is against that differentiation, and in favour of them being
equivalent terms.
Both are from the same root. But if I ask you to picture a rock wall and
then picture the rock of Gibraltar or Ayers rock, you picture two different
sizes of rock. Petra and petros, both rocks, but slightly different.
Not in the dialect used in the New Testament. In Greek, yes, but in older
Greek.

And on the other hand, one can trip over a petra - a rock that made people
fall. Rom 9:33 and 1 Peter 2:8 both refer to Jesus as being a stumbling
stone and a rock that you can trip over.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
There are others who hold that
Christ is building His church upon the confession that Simon Peter
made.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Post by Whazit Tooyah
I
don't agree with that at all.
Who is the Rock? The Rock is Christ. The church is built upon Christ. We
have Simon Peter's own explanation of this. In 1 Peter 2:4, referring to
Christ, he writes, "To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed
indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious."
We can't take one analogy and make it interpret a completely different
analogy. In Matt 16:18, Jesus is the builder. In 1 Peter 2, he's the
foundation, built on by the Father.
That Jesus is the rock in one place doesn't prevent Peter from being the
rock in Matt 16:18. Jesus is the light of the world, but so are we.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
And he remembers Isaiah
28:16, ". Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and
he that believeth on him shall not be confounded" (1 Pet. 2:6). The church
is built upon Christ; He is the foundation. "For other foundation can no
man
Post by Whazit Tooyah
lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ"
McGee, J. Vernon, 1997
Thru the Bible commentary
I don't know the resources you quoted and therefore I don't trust them
either.
Carson especially is a very well-known and well-respected source.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
I know and trust the resources I quoted. I checked the two other
commentaries that I have and could find no support for Jesus building His
church on Peter. What's more, I am familiar with the New Testament and it
offers no support for the church being built on Peter. What I have seen
is
Post by Whazit Tooyah
offered as support is Matthew 16:18 which is questionable at best, and
Acts
Post by Whazit Tooyah
15:7-11 which is only Peter offering testimony, the passage as a whole
doesn't support Peter as the leader, but rather it supports James as the
leader of the Jerusalem council.
I'd say that Matt 16:18 is pretty undeniable ... but questionable in the
sense that anything can be questioned. Acts 15 is more questionable, and
can reasonably be interpreted either way, although the idea that it supports
James as the leader has about as much evidence as the idea that it supports
Peter as the leader.
Matthew 16 may set Peter as a leader at that time. What I found particular
interesting was Matt 16:19. I was so hoping to find that Jesus was giving
the keys to the disciples, but it seems not to be the case. According to my
Biblical Greek program Jesus used a singular personal pronoun rather than a
plural, (translated as "you") In verses before and after when Jesus was
addressing the group He used a plural pronoun. But when He said whatever
you loose or bind on earth shall be loosed or bound in heaven, I found that
this was not Jesus giving Peter authority over scripture and Law.
According
Post by Whazit Tooyah
to what I found Jesus was saying that whatever Peter loosed or bound had
already been loosed or bound in heaven. Basically saying that Peter was
going to be guided in his teaching.and that he would not be allowed to step
beyond God's will.
That last sentence is exactly what Catholics believe. And I agree on that
binding and loosing interpretation ... God was not giving Peter or any of
the Apostles the right to do as they pleased. They would be guided, by the
Holy Spirit.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
What hasn't been shown in this discussion is any Biblical support for
Peter's leadership and authority being passed down through time.
Nope, it hasn't. But it was the belief and practice of the early
Christians; that someone else took the place of a deceased Apostle occurred
in the replacement of Judas; and it seems odd that Jesus would give someone
a leadership role, and intend that leadership for one generation only, and
then leave no leader to be guided by the Holy Spirit to guide his (Jesus')
flock.

Note, though, that we don't believe that modern bishops have the same
position as Apostles. They are successors to the Apostles, not Apostles
themselves. We limit that term to those who knew Jesus, and attribute a
greater form of guidance by the Holy Spirit to them - what they taught was
assured to be truth, while today the assurance is seen not as an assurance
of truth, but an assurance of a lack of error. The same for the Bible vs
the Church - the Bible's teachings are truth; the Church's teachings
(official statements) are merely lacking in error, and may not contain the
full truth on a matter not fully defined. Usually this takes the form of
condemning error, which goes a long way to defining truth, but leaving many
things open. For instance, the Church condemns the error that Jesus'
sacrifice was unplanned by God (1 Peter 1:10) but leaves open the debate
over whether Jesus' incarnation was due to that sacrifice - the opposing
views that Jesus would have become incarnate as man had man not sinned (the
minority view, my preference) and that Jesus would not have had to be
incarnated as man if man had not sinned (the majority view) will remain open
for debate until the time comes when one or the other needs formal
clarification. To maybe put it more simply, a statement like "it will rain"
is free from error, because it will rain, but the statement may not be
terribly precise - it doesn't state where, when, or for how long it will
rain.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Nor have I
seen any evidence of Peter as the head of the New Testament church. The
strongest evidences of that are Peter's sermon in Acts 2 and Peter's
testimony before the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15. As you admitted the
latter is not all that strong.
Reading the Bible and the Bible alone it would seem that Paul was the de
facto head of the New Testament Church.
Not really. Paul was probably a better evangelist, and made a huge impact
on the early Church. Since the book of Acts is largely about him and how he
carried on the mission of leading the early Christians, it's not surprising
that he plays an important role in the Bible. But being the most prominent
evangelist doesn't make him the leader of the Church. And the early
Christians didn't read the Bible and the Bible alone, which makes their
witness an independant one supporting Catholic interpretation of this
passage.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Had the Roman Catholic Church
chosen Paul as the first Pope, it would have a far stronger case in my
opinion.
Except for the fact that Jesus changed Simon's name (sand) to Kephas (rock),
that Peter alone was given the keys and the power of binding and loosing
(before the Apostles were given binding/loosing authority.) Peter alone was
told to feed Jesus' sheep.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Everything from Paul's special calling to Paul's authorship of
much of the teaching for the church indicates Paul's authority. Even his
public denunciation of Peter as recorded in Gal 2 indicates that Peter was
not considered to be the leader of the church.
There are some good ways to explain that event as something a lot less than
a serious public rebuke, taking into account similar things Paul himself
did, and at times I find them quite convincing. In the long term, though, I
don't, and there is really no need to, so I generally don't bother with
those ... but they are there. Assuming Paul was accusing Peter of
hypocrisy, and we are both quite happy with that assumption, that's all it
was - a personal sin of Peter's. Sin doesn't mean Peter was not their
leader any more than Paul's sin that he admits to means Paul could not have
been their leader. A leader teaching one thing while doing another is
certainly worth criticising. The prophets certainly did that of true
rightful kings of Israel; many, today and in the past, have done so of the
pope. It's similar to the way many Americans view the US president - the
office of the President is always to be respected, but the acts and
decisions of the man who holds that office may not always be worthy of that
office. There is nothing in Catholic theology that says the pope cannot be
rebuked for personal error. Probably the best example is Honorius I, who,
while not teaching heresy himself, didn't do enough to teach against it, and
was criticised by peers and later councils and popes. Even a pope's private
theological opinions may contain error ... and can be criticised. To
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Basically saying that Peter was
going to be guided in his teaching.and that he would not be allowed to step
beyond God's will.
We believe that of the pope. Whatever personal errors a pope might have,
whatever scandalous things he might do, while he can be criticised, he will
be guided in his role as leader - often guided in such a way as to enhance
the truth, but at least guided in such a way as to prevent him from harming
it.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Probably enough discussion on this.
I have to say Stephan that I enjoy these exchanges with you. You are
challenging, thoughtful, respectful and polite -- attributes that I wished
were more common in these newsgroups. Too often the discussions are full of
hyperbole and ad homonym.
Thanks ... and the same goes for you :-)

If it's over, I'll probably try to leave the newsgroups for a while - work
is keeping me busy, and newsgroups aren't the most relaxing things if brain
work avoidance in order to relax is required :-)

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

IC | XC
---------
NI | KA

add an s before .co.za
Andrew
2006-08-14 12:13:16 UTC
Permalink
...a contextual reading of Acts 15 offers absolutely no support to the idea of Peter
as Pope.
This is true according to the Bible, but our Catholic friends have been taught exactly
the opposite. Below is the falsehood they teach which is contrary to the word of the
living God in order to support the doctrine that Peter was a ~Pope~ and the doctrine
of a Papacy...an engine of darkness designed to control the minds, consciences and
souls of men.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Catholic Teaching... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


"St. Peter, not St. James, presided at the Council of Jerusalem. The question at issue
was whether the Gentiles were bound to obey the Mosaic law. Paul, Barnabas, James
and the rest were present as teachers and judges . . . but Peter was their head, and the
supreme arbiter of the controversy . . ." http://www.jesus-passion.com/papacy.htm


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ as opposed to the Bible... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"When they finished, JAMES spoke up: "Brothers, listen to me. Simon has <------- The presiding elder speaks
described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the
Gentiles a people for himself. The words of the prophets are in agreement
with this, as it is written:

" 'After this I will return
and rebuild David's fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
that the remnant of men may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things'
that have been known for ages.

"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the <-------- The presiding elders judgment
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Gentiles who are turning to God." James (not Peter)


------------------------------Acts 15:13-19-----------------------------------------
duke
2006-08-14 23:02:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
...a contextual reading of Acts 15 offers absolutely no support to the idea of Peter
as Pope.
This is true according to the Bible, but our Catholic friends have been taught exactly
the opposite. Below is the falsehood they teach which is contrary to the word of the
living God in order to support the doctrine that Peter was a ~Pope~ and the doctrine
of a Papacy...an engine of darkness designed to control the minds, consciences and
souls of men.
God gave the keys to the kingdom to Peter.

duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
Whazit Tooyah
2006-08-15 03:06:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by duke
Post by Andrew
...a contextual reading of Acts 15 offers absolutely no support to the idea of Peter
as Pope.
This is true according to the Bible, but our Catholic friends have been taught exactly
the opposite. Below is the falsehood they teach which is contrary to the word of the
living God in order to support the doctrine that Peter was a ~Pope~ and the doctrine
of a Papacy...an engine of darkness designed to control the minds, consciences and
souls of men.
Yes Andrew, and it works -- see below
Post by duke
God gave the keys to the kingdom to Peter.
Andrew
2006-08-15 03:17:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by duke
Post by Andrew
...a contextual reading of Acts 15 offers absolutely no support to the idea of Peter
as Pope.
This is true according to the Bible, but our Catholic friends have been taught exactly
the opposite. Below is the falsehood they teach which is contrary to the word of the
living God in order to support the doctrine that Peter was a ~Pope~ and the doctrine
of a Papacy...an engine of darkness designed to control the minds, consciences and
souls of men.
God gave the keys to the kingdom to Peter.
duke
Can you see that a contextual reading of Acts 15 offers absolutely no support to the
idea of Peter as being a Pope? And that Catholic apologetics which have tried to por-
tray it so are unbiblical and in error????


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Catholic Teaching... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


"St. Peter, not St. James, presided at the Council of Jerusalem. The question at issue
was whether the Gentiles were bound to obey the Mosaic law. Paul, Barnabas, James
and the rest were present as teachers and judges . . . but Peter was their head, and the
supreme arbiter of the controversy . . ." http://www.jesus-passion.com/papacy.htm


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ as opposed to the Bible... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"When they finished, JAMES spoke up: "Brothers, listen to me. Simon has <------- The presiding elder speaks
described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the
Gentiles a people for himself. The words of the prophets are in agreement
with this, as it is written:

" 'After this I will return
and rebuild David's fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
that the remnant of men may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things'
that have been known for ages.

"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the <-------- The presiding elders judgment
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Gentiles who are turning to God." James (not Peter)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Acts 15:13-19 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
duke
2006-08-15 19:23:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by duke
God gave the keys to the kingdom to Peter.
Can you see that a contextual reading of Acts 15 offers absolutely no support to the
idea of Peter as being a Pope? And that Catholic apologetics which have tried to por-
tray it so are unbiblical and in error????
TEXT and CONTEXT.


duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
J Young
2006-08-15 03:19:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by duke
Post by Andrew
...a contextual reading of Acts 15 offers absolutely no support to the idea of Peter
as Pope.
This is true according to the Bible, but our Catholic friends have been taught exactly
the opposite. Below is the falsehood they teach which is contrary to the word of the
living God in order to support the doctrine that Peter was a ~Pope~ and the doctrine
of a Papacy...an engine of darkness designed to control the minds, consciences and
souls of men.
God gave the keys to the kingdom to Peter.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
Ever seen the Pope sucking dick, duke?
Whazit Tooyah
2006-08-15 03:58:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
...a contextual reading of Acts 15 offers absolutely no support to the idea of Peter
as Pope.
This is true according to the Bible, but our Catholic friends have been
taught exactly the opposite. Below is the falsehood they teach which is
contrary to the word of the living God in order to support the doctrine
that Peter was a ~Pope~ and the doctrine
of a Papacy...an engine of darkness designed to control the minds, consciences and
souls of men.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Catholic Teaching... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"St. Peter, not St. James, presided at the Council of Jerusalem. The
question at issue was whether the Gentiles were bound to obey the Mosaic
law. Paul, Barnabas, James
and the rest were present as teachers and judges . . . but Peter was their
head, and the supreme arbiter of the controversy . . ."
http://www.jesus-passion.com/papacy.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ as opposed to the Bible... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"When they finished, JAMES spoke up: "Brothers, listen to me. Simon has
<------- The presiding elder speaks
described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the
Gentiles a people for himself. The words of the prophets are in agreement
" 'After this I will return
and rebuild David's fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
that the remnant of men may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things'
that have been known for ages.
"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for
the <-------- The presiding elders judgment
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Gentiles who are turning to God."
James (not Peter)
------------------------------Acts
15:13-19-----------------------------------------
Agreed. It is also significant that it is James' wording used in the letter
to the gentiles, not Peter's. Peter testified as did Paul and Barnabas,
James offered scriptural support and then rendered a decision that was
written into the letter sent to the gentiles. How anyone can find support
for Pope Peter in that passage is beyond me.
--
WT

By this all men will know that you are My disciples,
if you have love for one another
Andrew
2006-08-15 15:57:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Post by Andrew
...a contextual reading of Acts 15 offers absolutely no support to the idea of Peter
as Pope.
This is true according to the Bible, but our Catholic friends have been taught exactly
the opposite. Below is the falsehood they teach which is contrary to the word of the
living God in order to support the doctrine that Peter was a ~Pope~ and the doctrine
of a Papacy...an engine of darkness designed to control the minds, consciences and
souls of men.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Catholic Teaching... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"St. Peter, not St. James, presided at the Council of Jerusalem. The question at issue
was whether the Gentiles were bound to obey the Mosaic law. Paul, Barnabas, James
and the rest were present as teachers and judges . . . but Peter was their head, and the
supreme arbiter of the controversy . . ." http://www.jesus-passion.com/papacy.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ as opposed to the Bible... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"When they finished, JAMES spoke up: "Brothers, listen to me. Simon has <------- The presiding elder speaks
described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the
Gentiles a people for himself. The words of the prophets are in agreement
" 'After this I will return
and rebuild David's fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
that the remnant of men may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things'
that have been known for ages.
"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the <-------- The presiding elders judgment
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Gentiles who are turning to God." James (not Peter)
------------------------------Acts 15:13-19-----------------------------------------
Agreed. It is also significant that it is James' wording used in the letter
to the gentiles, not Peter's. Peter testified as did Paul and Barnabas,
James offered scriptural support and then rendered a decision that was
written into the letter sent to the gentiles. How anyone can find support
for Pope Peter in that passage is beyond me.
--
WT
Yes, and another significant point to consider is that Peter is never
mentioned again in the book of Acts. However when Paul returns
to Jerusalem, he meets with "James and all the elders" ibid.21:18.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
By this all men will know that you are My disciples,
if you have love for one another
Andrew
Stephen Korsman
2006-08-11 16:51:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Whazit Tooyah
And "Kephas" = rock foundation = "peter in translation" is clearly
assigned to
Simon.
You stated that kephas meant pebble or small rock to which I concur.
You only wish that was what I said. Jesus called Simon
"Kephas/Cephus",
Post by Whazit Tooyah
which
in Aramaic, the language of Jesus, means rock.
You offer nothing as evidence. So I will ask
again. Please provide Biblical evidence for the office of Pope as a
continuing office. Please show from scripture where the Pope is an
office
of the church.
I keep telling you - Mat 16:13-20, Acts 15:7. It's scriptural.
It's
Post by Whazit Tooyah
historical
from the very earliest day of the new Christian way. It's professed by
the
early Church Fathers.
Those verses in Acts show the Jerusalem council discussing doctrine.
And verse 7 specifically says that God chose Peter to bring the gospel to
the
Gentiles.
Peter
is shown great respect, but it seems that James is the chairman of this
council.
Nope, James is the leader of the Jews.
That Peter put and end to the debate is certainly more significant than
James confirming what Peter said, and adding practical applications.
You must have a different Bible than I have, because mine says that the Paul
and Barnabas also spoke after Peter. Peter merely testified.as did others.
Ac 15:13 After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying,
"Brethren, listen to me.
14 Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from
among the Gentiles a people for His name.
I think it can be seen both ways. It could be seen as Peter stating a) what
God did (v7-10), b) what Christians believe (v11), and then James stating c)
what to do about it.

That the debate ended with Peter is debatable, but not impossible at all.
After all, those listed (there may have been others) as speaking after he
ended the debate (if that's what he did) are not merely people from the
crowd of the elders ... but the two that raised the issue in Jerusalem (Paul
+ Barnabas, v2) and two Apostles (James; Peter.)

It could be a case of Peter closing the issue, making a statement on what
they believe, handing over to Paul and Barnabas to give their closing words
as initiators of the discussion/debate, and then to James to do the
practical stuff.

It could be a case of Peter stating his case, Paul and Barnabas giving their
closing points as initiators of the discussion, and then James making
practical arrangements ... all as equals, with no chairman.

It could be a case of a debate, followed by mention of Peter, Paul, and
Barnabas giving their views, and then James, chairman, making the final
decision.

From the text of Acts 15 alone, I think all of the above are possible
scenarios.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
James does not seem to see Peter's words as anything more than just
evidence. James then quotes some OT verses and in the following verses
renders his verdict which the council of elders carries out.
19 Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are
turning to God from among the Gentiles,
20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things
contaminated
Post by Whazit Tooyah
by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.
If you read the letter sent to the churches, it says exactly what James
decreed. After this there was no debate, nor is there an indication that
this matter was even voted on. The primacy of Peter IS NOT supported by
this passage.
I think that it can be reasonably interpreted in a way that supports it.
I'll acknowledge that that is not the only way to interpret it, and that is
can be interpreted to have no support for Peter's primacy.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
There was probably no chairman ... nothing suggests James was ... but there
was Peter's leadership.
Not so as seen in a contextual reading of the passage.
A contextual reading of the passage allows for it ... it also allows for
other interpretations. There is nothing to force us to accept that James
was chairman. His leadership position is also shown ... but Peter's is as
well. Many other people had things to say - but of those P+B brought the
issue to, only these were named in the discussion. James' role is obvious -
he was the leader of the Jerusalem Church where the debate took place. Why
Peter? Why not John, Andrew, etc? Perhaps they weren't there ... but then
it would limit "apostles and elders" (v2) to "two apostles and at least two
elders." What other Protestant explanations are there?
Post by Whazit Tooyah
an, i.e. Theophilus.
BUT, Jesus and his followers spoke Aramaic. You appear unable to grasp
that
simple fact. By this fact, Greek as the original writing is by
definition
the
first translation.
There is nothing to suggest that Jesus spoke ONLY Aramaic in the Bible.
There is nothing to suggest that he could speak Greek.
In all probability, he could speak Aramaic, Greek, and probably Latin.
Aramaic was the local language, Greek and, to a lesser extent, Latin were
the main business languages of the empire. He probably also spoke Hebrew,
since he read it in the Temple.
I imagine that Jesus could speak any language He wanted.
With correct grammar and syntax, naturally.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
It's extremely improbable that Jesus spoke Greek to a group of Aramaic
speakers for whom Aramaic was first language.
In
fact there is evidence that Jesus was able to communicate to whomever he
wished. I don't remember seeing a mention of Jesus using an interpreter.
He spoke Aramaic to people that spoke Aramaic. You'll figure it out
sooner or
later.
Nor that he had. You're confusing a person age 30 years as he was 2000
years
ago versus today with a high education. He was a carpenter is a rock
house. He
was not part of the commerce picture, and neither were his disciples.
They were
ordinary men, fishermen, etc.
No confusion, but no assumptions that aren't in the Bible either.
You're assuming that Jesus spoke Greek.
The
fisherman weren't subsistence fisherman, they sold their fish in the
markets, they owned several boats and were in partnership with others, in
other words, a fishing business.
More assumptions. You're dreaming. The apostles were 12 ordinary men.
You still haven't addressed the fact that Jesus read from the Septuagint
in
the synagogue in Luke 4.
He didn't read much less from the LXX.
It's unlikely that he didn't read it out loud ... but it's even more
unlikely that it was the LXX he read from. Luke quoted the LXX when he
wrote.
Possibly an explanation,but there is no way of knowing one way or another.
The Septuagint was very common and certainly the Pharisees, Sadducees and
most Rabbis could read Greek.
I thought that the Pharisees were anti-Hellenisation, and therefore
anti-LXX? Even so, yes, it's possible it was the LXX. But unlikely, unless
the synagogue in question were in a predominantly non-Hebrew community,
which Galilee wasn't, as far as I know.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Mt 23:9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father,
He
who is in heaven.
10 Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.
And there is only one Father IN HEAVEN.
1 Corinthians 4:15 (New International Version)
15Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have
many
fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.
See, calling your spiritual man-leader as "Father" is scriptural.
NOT. Paul is speaking figuratively, nor is he telling or asking to be
called father.
Jesus didn't make an exception for figurative use, and Paul wasn't asking
people to call him father, he was calling himself that - not biologically,
but in a sense of a father over his household.
Post by Whazit Tooyah
Jesus was giving a lesson on pride, not linguistics.
I disagree, Jesus was also giving a lesson on the source of doctrine and
authority. That being God and God alone.
Mt 23:8 But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are
all brothers.
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who
is in heaven.
10 Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.
Clearly not pride alone, because He is not only saying "don't be called..."
He is also saying don't call anyone on earth....
The Bible describes local pastors (Bishops) and deacons, but it says nothing
of any office higher than that.
If Jesus meant that nobody was to call anyone on earth "father", and meant
it in the sense of forbidding the word, then what of biological fathers? No
exception is made for them ... and it remains a word, and name, by which
they were/are called.

Rom 4:1, James 2:21, Luke 1:73, and Acts 7:2 have Abraham being called a
father, in an ancestral/spiritual sense. Rom 4:16 has Abraham called the
"father of us all." Isaac is called "our father Isaac" in Rom 9.

Timothy's father was a Greek, says Acts 16. That's not metaphorical or
figurative. Yet this man was called Timothy's father, when Timothy was a
Christian whose father was God.

1 Cor 4:15 has Paul calling himself a father in a spiritual sense.

Obviously the term "father" can be used in a biological sense. And
obviously it can be used in a spiritual sense.

If Jesus forbade the use of the term "father" and if a question is asked in
any particular instance, "was that man called a father?" then I don't see
how the answer can be "No" in any of these cases. Which means that there
are exceptions, or that it was not meant to prohibit a specific word, or
that the writers of the New Testament were simply in error to use the term
the way they did for Isaac, Abraham, et al.

The context of Jesus' statement is pride. It was pride that puffed these
people up to hear themselves called "rabbi" or "teacher" or "master" or a
spiritual father. Addressing a teacher as "teacher" is not wrong ... yet
the passage forbids that too (the word "master" in the KJV is a guide or a
teacher, according to Strong's.) So the term "doctor" (the Latin
translation) would be equally wrong. (We can exclude the medical doctor for
the sake of argument, but not someone with a doctorate.)

If Jesus was referring to words not to be used, then they shouldn't have
been used elsewhere in the Bible, especially the New Testament period after
he gave that prohibition. If we can ever answer "Yes" to the question "was
that man called a father?" then we have to either conclude that it is a case
of disobedience to Jesus's ruling, or we need to ask if it fits the
description of the people Jesus was criticising - "do they use the title
because it places them in a position of power, due to pride, or to be seen
as important?"

Many non-Catholics might attribute the title "father" used by priests to
imply such things. They often think of Catholic priests as all-powerful
dictators over their congregation, demanding authority and submission to
their interpretation of anything and everything. But that is not the case
in actual Catholic theology, and in the experience of most Catholics, not at
all the reason why priests use that title. In Catholic theology, it gets
used in the same sense as the Bible uses it for Paul and Abraham and Isaac,
and in the sense of a spiritual leader acting as a father to his household,
the congregation, as much subject to Christ as Paul and Abraham and Isaac
were. In a practical sense, it's a convenient term to call a priest -
especially one whose name you don't know. And by the time you know his
name, it's already what you're calling him, so it sticks. My father calls
our bishop "George" and the nuns (and many others, but the nuns are usually
the majority) at our church call the priest by his name. Pride doesn't come
into the use of the term ... and if a priest did take pride in it, it would
be criticised by the Catholic Church just as it was by Christ.

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

IC | XC
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NI | KA

add an s before .co.za
God is real
2006-09-05 03:11:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Whazit Tooyah
And "Kephas" = rock foundation = "peter in translation" is clearly
assigned to
Simon.
You stated that kephas meant pebble or small rock to which I concur.
You only wish that was what I said. Jesus called Simon "Kephas/Cephus",
which
in Aramaic, the language of Jesus, means rock.
You offer nothing as evidence. So I will ask
again. Please provide Biblical evidence for the office of Pope as a
continuing office. Please show from scripture where the Pope is an
office
of the church.
I keep telling you - Mat 16:13-20, Acts 15:7. It's scriptural. It's
historical
from the very earliest day of the new Christian way. It's professed by
the
early Church Fathers.
Those verses in Acts show the Jerusalem council discussing doctrine.
And verse 7 specifically says that God chose Peter to bring the gospel to
the
Gentiles.
Peter
is shown great respect, but it seems that James is the chairman of this
council.
Nope, James is the leader of the Jews.
That Peter put and end to the debate is certainly more significant than
James confirming what Peter said, and adding practical applications.
You must have a different Bible than I have, because mine says that the
Paul and Barnabas also spoke after Peter. Peter merely testified.as did
Ac 15:13 After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying,
"Brethren, listen to me.
14 Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking
from among the Gentiles a people for His name.
James does not seem to see Peter's words as anything more than just
evidence. James then quotes some OT verses and in the following verses
renders his verdict which the council of elders carries out.
19 Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are
turning to God from among the Gentiles,
20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things
contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and
from blood.
If you read the letter sent to the churches, it says exactly what James
decreed. After this there was no debate, nor is there an indication that
this matter was even voted on. The primacy of Peter IS NOT supported by
this passage.
There was probably no chairman ... nothing suggests James was ... but there
was Peter's leadership.
Not so as seen in a contextual reading of the passage.
an, i.e. Theophilus.
BUT, Jesus and his followers spoke Aramaic. You appear unable to grasp
that
simple fact. By this fact, Greek as the original writing is by
definition
the
first translation.
There is nothing to suggest that Jesus spoke ONLY Aramaic in the Bible.
There is nothing to suggest that he could speak Greek.
In all probability, he could speak Aramaic, Greek, and probably Latin.
Aramaic was the local language, Greek and, to a lesser extent, Latin were
the main business languages of the empire. He probably also spoke Hebrew,
since he read it in the Temple.
I imagine that Jesus could speak any language He wanted.
It's extremely improbable that Jesus spoke Greek to a group of Aramaic
speakers for whom Aramaic was first language.
In
fact there is evidence that Jesus was able to communicate to whomever he
wished. I don't remember seeing a mention of Jesus using an interpreter.
He spoke Aramaic to people that spoke Aramaic. You'll figure it out
sooner or
later.
Nor that he had. You're confusing a person age 30 years as he was 2000
years
ago versus today with a high education. He was a carpenter is a rock
house. He
was not part of the commerce picture, and neither were his disciples.
They were
ordinary men, fishermen, etc.
No confusion, but no assumptions that aren't in the Bible either.
You're assuming that Jesus spoke Greek.
The
fisherman weren't subsistence fisherman, they sold their fish in the
markets, they owned several boats and were in partnership with others, in
other words, a fishing business.
More assumptions. You're dreaming. The apostles were 12 ordinary men.
You still haven't addressed the fact that Jesus read from the Septuagint
in
the synagogue in Luke 4.
He didn't read much less from the LXX.
It's unlikely that he didn't read it out loud ... but it's even more
unlikely that it was the LXX he read from. Luke quoted the LXX when he
wrote.
Possibly an explanation,but there is no way of knowing one way or another.
The Septuagint was very common and certainly the Pharisees, Sadducees and
most Rabbis could read Greek.
Mt 23:9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father,
He
who is in heaven.
10 Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.
And there is only one Father IN HEAVEN.
1 Corinthians 4:15 (New International Version)
15Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have
many
fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.
See, calling your spiritual man-leader as "Father" is scriptural.
NOT. Paul is speaking figuratively, nor is he telling or asking to be
called father.
Jesus was giving a lesson on pride, not linguistics.
I disagree, Jesus was also giving a lesson on the source of doctrine and
authority. That being God and God alone.
Mt 23:8 But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are
all brothers.
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who
is in heaven.
10 Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.
Clearly not pride alone, because He is not only saying "don't be
called..." He is also saying don't call anyone on earth....
The Bible describes local pastors (Bishops) and deacons, but it says
nothing of any office higher than that.
--
WT
By this all men will know that you are My disciples,
if you have love for one another
here is some interesting infomation on the catholic church

http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?bible3.htm

http://creation.topspotinc.com

Stephen Korsman
2006-08-07 22:31:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by I. B. Wonderin
THen, Why does Rome claim to have changed the Sabbath sanctification
to
Sunday, when that's not a command of God, or His Son, nor found
anywhere in the bible, and fills in the gaps with their traditions
and
commands and dogma, and why do you a Baptist obey them?
Rome didn't. Rome did nothing except re-create the Greco - Roman God
system
including the worship of Athena / Dianne.
"Of course, I quite well know that Sunday did come into use in early
Christian history as a religious day, as we learn from the Christian
Fathers and other sources. But what a pity that it comes branded with
the mark of paganism, and christened with the name of the sun god, when
adopted and sanctioned by the papal apostasy, and bequeathed as a sacred
legacy to Protestantism!"-Dr. Edward T. Hiscox, author of The Baptist
Manual, in a paper read before a New York City Ministers' Conference,
held in New York City, Nov. 13, 1893.
The first century church celebrated God on the first day of the week
Which Church?
You might wanta check out my answer to Stephen Korsman...
Or rather, your non-answer, Cindy.

http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/post/index/238/I-B-Wonderin
http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/post/index/239/I-B-Wondering-2
Post by I. B. Wonderin
THE MYSTERY OF INIQUITY WAS ALREADY AT WORK:. The earliest reference to
sunday is Justin in about 140 AD who belonged to the Church in Rome.
Try Barnabas and Ignatius. Ignatius was a disciple of John.
Post by I. B. Wonderin
The only other early quotes is from the Church in Alexandria.
Ignatius was at Antioch.
Post by I. B. Wonderin
So you
have the Greek and Roman Catholic Churches doing this, while the rest of
the Christian Churches continued keeping the Seventh-day as Sabbath.for
centuries...
As a custom. Not in the way you do.
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Sabbath is NOT and never was Saturday except by custom.
Are you someone who has faith in Christ, and believes in sola
scriptura? If so, where is that?
You either don't know that Saturday is the seventh day of the week,
or are ignoring the entire OT and discounting everything the Lord said,
or
by that you mean a custom by God's creation and commandment?
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, AS
HIS CUSTOM WAS, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood
up for to read.
Mat 12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that
shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will
he not lay hold on it, and lift [it] out? Mat 12:12 How much then is a
man better than a sheep? Wherefore IT IS LAWFULL to do well on the
sabbath days.
Mar 6:2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the
synagogue: and many hearing [him] were astonished, saying, From whence
hath this [man] these things? and what wisdom [is] this which is given
unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
Luk 4:31 And came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them
on the sabbath days.
Luk 13:10 And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath.
Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as
I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love
SPEAKING TO HIS DISCIPLES (CHRISTIANS ALL OF THEM) OF ALMOST 40 YEARS
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on
Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; AND
RESTED THE SABBATH DAY ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT..
Act 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in
Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
Act 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because
they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read
every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
Act 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, ---> the
Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next
sabbath.
Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together
to hear the word of God.
Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him,
being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Act 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side,
where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the
women which resorted [thither].
Act 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three
sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded
the Jews and the Greeks.
None of these refer to Christian Sabbath observance.

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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NI | KA

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Stephen Korsman
2006-08-07 22:46:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Are you someone who has faith in Christ, and believes in sola
scriptura? If so, where is that?
You either don't know that Saturday is the seventh day of the week,
or are ignoring the entire OT and discounting everything the Lord said,
or
by that you mean a custom by God's creation and commandment?
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/matt12.html

Mark 2, Matt 12, Luke 6

(Mar 2:23) And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the
sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of
corn.
(Mar 2:24) And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the
sabbath day that which is not lawful?
(Mar 2:25) And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he
had need, and was hungry, he, and they that were with him?
(Mar 2:26) How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the
high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for
the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?
(Mar 2:27) And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man
for the sabbath:
(Mar 2:28) Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

(Mat 12:1) At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and
his disciples were hungry, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
(Mat 12:2) But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy
disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
(Mat 12:3) But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he
was hungry, and they that were with him;
(Mat 12:4) How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread,
which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him,
but only for the priests
(Mat 12:5) Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the
priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless
(Mat 12:6) But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the
temple.
(Mat 12:7) But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not
sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
(Mat 12:8) For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
(Mat 12:9) And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue:
(Mat 12:10) And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And
they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they
might accuse him.
(Mat 12:11) And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that
shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he
not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
(Mat 12:12) How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is
lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

(Luk 6:5) And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the
sabbath.
(Luk 6:9) Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful
on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy
it?




Adventists claim that these passages show that the Sabbath is still in
effect, and Christians are obliged to keep it. They claim that Mark 2:27, in
saying that the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath, proves
that the Sabbath was not given to Israel alone, but to all mankind.

They are taking the verse out of context. If one goes back and read the
entire passage along with verse 27, one sees that Jesus was not speaking
about whether or not the Sabbath was made for Jews or for all mankind for
all ages and in all places. Jesus was accused of breaking the law in many
places in the Bible, and the Sabbath was one they often picked on him for -
here he is pointing out that the purpose of the Sabbath is to serve man, not
a case of man being made to glorify the Sabbath. By removing the verse from
its context, Sabbath keepers turn the meaning around. This is a
well-documented logical fallacy, called the false dichotomy. The verse, out
of context, is presented as presenting two points (the false dichotomy) -
the Sabbath was made for man, or the Sabbath was made for Jews. But in
context, the actual dichotomy is between the legalist/Pharisee perspective
(the Sabbath was more important than those keeping it) and Jesus'
perspective (the Sabbath was made to serve those keeping it.)

When Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man, he was NOT contrasting
mankind with Judaism. He was contrasting the LAW with MAN ... what he was
saying is that the LAW was made to serve MAN, NOT man being made to keep the
law. There is NOTHING about Jews or Israel AT ALL in this text ...
Adventists are reading something into the text that is not there, and, by
removing a statement from its context, making it say something that doesn't
even fit into the actual context at all. The Old Testament is explicit - the
Sabbath was made for Israel, and is explicitly called the sign of the Old
Covenant. We all know that this was abolished at the Cross. And the Old
Testament also tells us clearly that the Sabbath was given to MOSES, and NOT
before the time of Moses. That alone proves that the Sabbath was not given
to ALL mankind, because Adam, Noah, and Abraham never knew of it or kept it.
See the article here for more info on that.

Jesus is not saying that Christians must keep the Sabbath. That is taking
Jesus' words out of context. Does Jesus actually preach anywhere about the
future Christian Church and the laws it must keep? Such an idea is not found
ANYWHERE in this passage, or in the New Testament. What Jesus is doing is
instructing the Sabbath-keeping Jews of his day on how to deal with God's
law. They were legalistic, and put the law above love and mercy. Jesus is
turning that around, and saying that the Sabbath God gave them is not meant
as an end in its own right, but as a means to serve mankind. Jesus is
explaining that the Sabbath is a means for grace and mercy, and not what the
Pharisees made it into - the holy of holies, the final end of Jewish
worship. This principle is equally valid in ALL Christian denominations.
There is nothing at all in the text to suggest that Jesus is proclaiming
that the Sabbath will continue. He is merely using a real problem of the
time to expound a principle of mercy.

Jesus is actually discussing the law as a whole here - my reasoning is
twofold. First, the Pharisees were always trying to find him breaking the
law - the Sabbath, hand-washing, and so forth - and so this is just one of
the several instances where Jesus gives us insight into the true nature and
purpose of the law. Second, Jesus actually gives another example of
law-breaking unrelated to the Sabbath - David was so hungry he ate a certain
bread that could not be eaten by anyone other than the high priest. This has
nothing to do with the Sabbath, yet Jesus uses this example to prove that
the law exists to serve man, not man to serve the law. Based on this, I feel
that Jesus is not promoting the Sabbath at all here, and this passage
actually does not deal with the Sabbath's implications for Christians. All
that Jesus is doing is showing, using two contemporary examples, how the law
is meant to be used. So he is not making a statement at all about who the
Sabbath was given to - Israel versus mankind. The Bible has already spoken
on that - the Sabbath was for Israel. What Jesus is saying - as I see it -
is not about mankind's relationship with the Sabbath, but the relationship
between PEOPLE and the Sabbath - did people have to serve the Sabbath or did
the Sabbath exist to serve the people Jesus was speaking to? And this is
just one of several examples used to show the nature of the law.

What of the statements that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath? Adventists want
the text so say that because Jesus is "Lord even of the Sabbath", it means
that it is his special day. But just go back and read the entire passage -
it actually is saying that Jesus is ABOVE the law, that it is HE who
determines when a law is applicable, and when it is legalistic. Basically,
the text is saying NOT that Jesus' special day is the Sabbath, but that
Jesus is Lord OVER the Sabbath JUST as he is Lord over every other aspect of
nature, the law, and the universe, and he controls it completely.

Circumcision too was made for man, and not man for circumcision.
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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add an s before .co.za
Stephen Korsman
2006-08-07 22:46:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Are you someone who has faith in Christ, and believes in sola
scriptura? If so, where is that?
You either don't know that Saturday is the seventh day of the week,
or are ignoring the entire OT and discounting everything the Lord said,
or
by that you mean a custom by God's creation and commandment?
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, AS
HIS CUSTOM WAS, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood
up for to read.
http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/luke4.html

Luke 4

(Luk 4:14) And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and
there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.
(Luk 4:15) And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
(Luk 4:16) And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as
his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up
for to read.

(Luk 4:28) And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were
filled with wrath,
(Luk 4:29) And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the
brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down
headlong.
(Luk 4:30) But he passing through the midst of them went his way,
(Luk 4:31) And came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them on
the sabbath days.




Sabbarians tell us that we must do as Christ did, since he is our example.
They point to these passages to show that we need to keep the Sabbath. Yet,
although Christ was circumcised, most Sabbatarians don't teach that
circumcision is compulsory for Christians.

These are texts that supports the idea that Christians did NOT keep the
Sabbath. You just need to look at CONTEXT. Luke is writing to ... who? The
GENTILE CHRISTIANS. So, why does he have to actually mention in his text
that it was Jesus' CUSTOM to go to the synagogue on the Sabbath. Jesus lived
under the Old Covenant, and naturally he observed the Sabbath. Any Sabbath
observance that Jesus did would have to explained to people who did not keep
the Sabbath and who were unfamiliar with it. And therefore, when we see that
Jesus' Sabbath visit to the synagogue was actually explained, we need to ask
WHY it needed to be explained. And, if we look at what the Bible and history
show about first century Gentile Christians, we see that Luke needed to
explain Jesus' Sabbath customs because the Christian Gentiles were not
familiar with the Sabbath at all. So, surprise! The text used to prove that
Jesus went to the synagogue on the Sabbath, actually helps prove that
Christians do NOT need to do that!!!

There is nothing in this text to even suggest that future Christians ought
to keep the Sabbath at all.
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

IC | XC
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NI | KA

add an s before .co.za
Stephen Korsman
2006-08-07 22:47:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Are you someone who has faith in Christ, and believes in sola
scriptura? If so, where is that?
You either don't know that Saturday is the seventh day of the week,
or are ignoring the entire OT and discounting everything the Lord said,
or
by that you mean a custom by God's creation and commandment?
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, AS
HIS CUSTOM WAS, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood
up for to read.
Mat 12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that
shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will
he not lay hold on it, and lift [it] out? Mat 12:12 How much then is a
man better than a sheep? Wherefore IT IS LAWFULL to do well on the
sabbath days.
Mar 6:2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the
synagogue: and many hearing [him] were astonished, saying, From whence
hath this [man] these things? and what wisdom [is] this which is given
unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
Luk 4:31 And came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them
on the sabbath days.
Luk 13:10 And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath.
Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as
I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love
SPEAKING TO HIS DISCIPLES (CHRISTIANS ALL OF THEM) OF ALMOST 40 YEARS
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on
http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/matt24.html

Matt 24:20



Mat 24:3-21 KJV:
(3) And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him
privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be
the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
(4) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive
you.
(5) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive
many.
(6) And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not
troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
(7) For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and
there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
(8) All these are the beginning of sorrows.
(9) Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and
ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
(10) And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and
shall hate one another.
(11) And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
(12) And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
(13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
(14) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a
witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
(15) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by
Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him
understand:)
(16) Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:
(17) Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of
his house:
(18) Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
(19) And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in
those days!
(20) But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the
sabbath day:
(21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the
beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.




Adventists and other Sabbath observers claim that verse 20 in this passage
shows that Jesus foretold the keeping of the Sabbath by Christians. To walk
too far on the Sabbath was to break the Sabbath, and Christians should pray
not to break the Sabbath by having to flee Jerusalem on that day. Even
today, several of these groups frown on walking an excessive distance, and
consider it to be work, and therefore constituting a breaking of the Sabbath
commandment.

But is that really what Jesus meant? He, who permitted the saving of a
sheep's life on the Sabbath by pulling it from a pit, who told the paralysed
man to get up and carry away his bed on the Sabbath, said we should pray not
to have to break the Sabbath by saving our own lives? Isn't that just a
little absurd?

To get to an understanding of what Jesus really meant, all we need to do to
find the answer is look at history, and look at the other examples Jesus
uses in that verse, and then examine the actual context - what was Jesus
really talking about?

This prophecy refers primarily to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, but may
also refer to future events near the end of time.

First, Jesus knew that the Pharisees locked the gates to Jerusalem on the
Sabbath to prevent people from walking too far, which was considered work.
Therefore, anyone in Jerusalem at the time the Romans attacked, if that day
were a Sabbath, would be locked in and would not be able to flee. Jesus
cannot be telling us that we may not save our lives by fleeing on the
Sabbath, because he himself said we could heal on the Sabbath. So if Sabbath
keepers were following his own example, they would not have a problem with
saving their lives by fleeing on the Sabbath - they would have a proper
perspective, and have no qualms with running away. Jesus knew that the gates
would be locked on the Sabbath and they would not be able to escape - and
this is why they had to be concerned, but because it was contrary to God's
law to walk too far to save your life on that day.

Second, we get to the other examples of things they should hope/pray to
avoid. If we draw a parallel between them, and compare them, we see they all
follow the same pattern. Winter ... a physical problem making travel
unpleasant and difficult and more dangerous due to extreme cold, not
disobedience to God's law if they travelled in winter. Pregnancy ... the
further into pregnancy you go, the more difficult it becomes to run, hide,
and sleep in the bush - a physical problem, and not disobedience to God's
law to travel while pregnant. Having a young child - they are difficult to
control, to care for, and are more vulnerable to the elements, and no parent
would want to put a child through the physical and emotional trauma of
running away from soldiers - again, a physical problem, and not disobedience
to God. So ... when we get to the Sabbath, do we classify it as a physical
problem (locked gates,) or do we really believe that Christ is saying that
his followers should pray not to have to offend him by fleeing certain death
on the Sabbath, when Jesus told the Jews it was not unlawful to heal and
save lives and even pick grain or fish a sheep out of a hole on the Sabbath?

Is Jesus really upholding the laws of the Pharisees here, and are we
expected to live by these laws too?

I believe that the Adventist position goes against the principle of the
Gospel. Jesus was not contradicting his own teaching, and proclaiming that
we should worry about breaking the Sabbath by fleeing for our lives. He was
simply being practical. So, then, should we.
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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Stephen Korsman
2006-08-07 22:47:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Are you someone who has faith in Christ, and believes in sola
scriptura? If so, where is that?
You either don't know that Saturday is the seventh day of the week,
or are ignoring the entire OT and discounting everything the Lord said,
or
by that you mean a custom by God's creation and commandment?
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, AS
HIS CUSTOM WAS, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood
up for to read.
Mat 12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that
shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will
he not lay hold on it, and lift [it] out? Mat 12:12 How much then is a
man better than a sheep? Wherefore IT IS LAWFULL to do well on the
sabbath days.
Mar 6:2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the
synagogue: and many hearing [him] were astonished, saying, From whence
hath this [man] these things? and what wisdom [is] this which is given
unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
Luk 4:31 And came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them
on the sabbath days.
Luk 13:10 And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath.
Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as
I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love
SPEAKING TO HIS DISCIPLES (CHRISTIANS ALL OF THEM) OF ALMOST 40 YEARS
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on
Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; AND
RESTED THE SABBATH DAY ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT..
Jesus had not yet risen from the dead, and so this and like passages can't
be used to argue for Sabbath observance by Christians who live after the
change in Covenant.

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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add an s before .co.za
Stephen Korsman
2006-08-07 22:47:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Are you someone who has faith in Christ, and believes in sola
scriptura? If so, where is that?
You either don't know that Saturday is the seventh day of the week,
or are ignoring the entire OT and discounting everything the Lord said,
or
by that you mean a custom by God's creation and commandment?
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, AS
HIS CUSTOM WAS, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood
up for to read.
Mat 12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that
shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will
he not lay hold on it, and lift [it] out? Mat 12:12 How much then is a
man better than a sheep? Wherefore IT IS LAWFULL to do well on the
sabbath days.
Mar 6:2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the
synagogue: and many hearing [him] were astonished, saying, From whence
hath this [man] these things? and what wisdom [is] this which is given
unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
Luk 4:31 And came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them
on the sabbath days.
Luk 13:10 And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath.
Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as
I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love
SPEAKING TO HIS DISCIPLES (CHRISTIANS ALL OF THEM) OF ALMOST 40 YEARS
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on
Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; AND
RESTED THE SABBATH DAY ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT..
Act 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in
Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
Act 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because
they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read
every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
Act 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, ---> the
Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next
sabbath.
Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together
to hear the word of God.
http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/acts13.html

Act 13:13-44

(Act 13:13) Now when Paul and his company loosed from Paphos, they came to
Perga in Pamphylia: and John departing from them returned to Jerusalem.
(Act 13:14) But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in
Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
(Act 13:15) And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of
the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any
word of exhortation for the people, say on.
(Act 13:16) Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of
Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.

(Act 13:26) Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and
whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.
(Act 13:27) For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they
knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every
sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

(Act 13:42) And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles
besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
(Act 13:43) Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and
religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them,
persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
(Act 13:44) And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to
hear the word of God.




Here we start looking at texts that Adventists claim show that early
Christians kept the Sabbath. They say that these are Sabbath services, and
since they were attended by Christians, they show that these Christians were
keeping the Sabbath.

Yes, Acts 13 is referring to a Sabbath service, but look where the service
is! Is this a Christian service, organised by Christians, for Christian
worship? Or is this a Jewish service, organised by Jews, for the usual
synagogue service that had been going on in the synagogues for decades prior
to Christ's lifetime? It is not in a Christian home or church, and it is not
a Christian service. It is a Jewish service. History shows us that these
services were not like today's Christian services, where generally Catholics
go to Catholic churches, Methodists to Methodist churches, Baptists to
Baptist churches, etc. It is a historical fact that Jewish services at the
synagogue were not restricted to Jews alone - an entire section of the
synagogue was built to accommodate non-Jews. The people at the time welcomed
any such gathering where religion and morals and philosophy were discussed.
So, naturally, they were attended by Jews and Gentiles alike. And they were
attended by Christians who wanted to introduce their own Christian
perspective on the matters being discussed, in particular doing things like
opening a discussion about prophecies about Christ, and how he fulfilled
various Old Testament passages. Coming out of Judaism, obviously many
Christians still continued their Jewish traditions until they were expelled
from the synagogues.

So, no, by preaching to the Jews and Gentiles in the synagogue on the
Sabbath is NOT Sabbath observance ANY more than Adventists placing tracts on
windscreens of cars at Sunday observing churches is Sunday observance by
Adventists. If an Adventist pastor went to a Catholic service to preach to
Catholics, would there be any point going on a Saturday? No. If he went on a
Sunday, would he be keeping Sunday? No. So you can't claim that Paul was
keeping the Sabbath, simply because he attended a non-Christian service on
that day in order to witness to the non-Christians there.

Where does Acts 13 use the word "worship" in relation to the actions of
Paul? Nowhere - not one of the words used indicates worship by Paul.

The text of Acts 13 itself demonstrates that Paul is NOT observing the
Sabbath. The assumption that his presence in the synagogues on the Sabbath
means his observance of it as a holy day is a mistake Sabbatarians make
because they want to find texts where the Apostles keep the Sabbath. In
fact, there are NO such texts in the entire Bible!

Compare gatherings meant for Christian worship to the gathering Paul is
attending here - Christian worship services are restricted to Christians
only - see Acts 20:7 for one example. What Paul is doing is going to a
Jewish non-Christian service in order to witness to the Jews and Gentiles
there. The services at the synagogues were not attended only by Jews, and
many Gentiles who followed many other religions also went to the synagogue
on the Sabbath - not because they were keeping the Sabbath: they didn't
believe in the Sabbath principle, it wasn't part of their religion. They
went because Saturday was the day of the week when the synagogue was full,
and it was on this day that religious and moral and spiritual and
philosophical principles were preached and discussed. any person - Jew or
Gentile or pagan - would find such an event stimulating, if they were
interested in the deeper meaning of life and moral values. And that is the
reason many non-Jews did attend the synagogue services. The sabbath
gathering of people to the synagogue to discuss matters of religion and
morals and proper lifestyle was not restricted to the Jews, and was a common
public meeting for people to listen to wise counsel.

What a perfect opportunity for Paul and other Christians to witness to both
the Jews and the other people attending. Recognised as a Jew, he could take
part in the discussion right up front, and offer Christian interpretations
of the texts being discussed, and thereby win people to Christ. But nothing,
absolutely nothing in the text even suggests that he attended the synagogue
on this day because he felt obliged to keep the Sabbath holy. His own words
on the matter of the Sabbath in his letters prove that he believed no such
thing - in fact he labels Sabbath keeping a weakness in his letter to the
Romans (chapter 14). He was no more keeping the Sabbath by preaching to the
Jews on the Sabbath than he is keeping any Roman or pagan feasts by using
their gatherings to preach to them, as is recorded in Acts 17, where he
refers to pagan altars which he does not reject, but proclaims that they
actually refer to the one true God. No, these texts do not refer to Paul
keeping the Sabbath. All he did was preach on the Sabbath to people who were
gathered on the Sabbath, just as he would preach on a Tuesday to those who
gathered somewhere on a Tuesday. The Bible says no more than that, and the
context makes it obvious. To read Sabbath observance into these texts is to
add something to the Bible that simply is not there.

Also, the Gentiles flocked to hear the Apostles preach wherever they
preached, Sabbath or otherwise, so naturally one would expect Gentiles to be
present at the synagogue on the Sabbath. They would not be there on Mondays
or Wednesdays because there were no gatherings in the synagogue on these
days when the Apostles could preach.

The Adventists claim that the Apostles were there for worship and Sabbath
observance is faulty for another reason.

(2Co 6:14) Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what
fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath
light with darkness?
(2Co 6:15) And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he
that believeth with an infidel?
(2Co 6:16) And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are
the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and
walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(2Co 6:17) Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the
Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

Are we to believe that, contrary to his own advice, Paul worshipped
alongside unbelievers? Or should we take the text at face value, without
reading a worship service into a text that does not indicate Christian
worship, and without meddling with the context of the text? This passage may
refer to marriage, but how much more it would apply to true worship.

I should reiterate here my response to the commonly used Adventist argument
that they came back again to the Jewish service on the next Sabbath, not the
next day to a Christian service. Because it was a set weekly gathering for
the Jews, obviously if Paul went along on a Sunday, a Monday, a Tuesday,
etc., the place would not have a crowd gathered to listen. It was the Jewish
nature of this gathering that made it happen every Sabbath. And it was
because Christian worship services were not generally witnessing events that
those who wanted to return did not simply attend the next Christian service.
Christian services were meant for Christians to worship God and celebrate
the Lord's Supper, while they were not designed to be services to witness to
people. Even today, there is a huge difference between a gathering for the
purposes of worship, and a gathering for the purposes of evangelisation, and
there is a huge difference between the sermon a pastor will prepare for
those who are already Christians, and one he will prepare for a group of
non-Christian people he hopes to bring the Gospel message to. So the
Adventist argument that, had Christians observed Sunday, they would have
come for more of Paul's preaching the very next day, not the next Sabbath,
fails, because Adventists fail to consider the difference between a
Christian service where Christians worshipped, and an event where they
witnessed to unbelievers. The passage from 2 Corinthians puts this in
perspective.

So, in summary, I don't see why this text refers to Christian Sabbath
observance.
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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add an s before .co.za
Stephen Korsman
2006-08-07 22:47:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Are you someone who has faith in Christ, and believes in sola
scriptura? If so, where is that?
You either don't know that Saturday is the seventh day of the week,
or are ignoring the entire OT and discounting everything the Lord said,
or
by that you mean a custom by God's creation and commandment?
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, AS
HIS CUSTOM WAS, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood
up for to read.
Mat 12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that
shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will
he not lay hold on it, and lift [it] out? Mat 12:12 How much then is a
man better than a sheep? Wherefore IT IS LAWFULL to do well on the
sabbath days.
Mar 6:2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the
synagogue: and many hearing [him] were astonished, saying, From whence
hath this [man] these things? and what wisdom [is] this which is given
unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
Luk 4:31 And came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them
on the sabbath days.
Luk 13:10 And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath.
Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as
I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love
SPEAKING TO HIS DISCIPLES (CHRISTIANS ALL OF THEM) OF ALMOST 40 YEARS
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on
Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; AND
RESTED THE SABBATH DAY ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT..
Act 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in
Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
Act 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because
they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read
every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
Act 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, ---> the
Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next
sabbath.
Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together
to hear the word of God.
Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him,
being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/acts15.html

Acts 15

(Act 15:1) And certain men which came down from Judea taught the brethren,
and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be
saved.
(Act 15:2) When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and
disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain
other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about
this question.
(Act 15:3) And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through
Phoenicia and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they
caused great joy unto all the brethren.
(Act 15:4) And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the
church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that
God had done with them.
(Act 15:5) But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which
believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command
them to keep the law of Moses.
(Act 15:6) And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this
matter.
(Act 15:7) And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said
unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made
choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the
gospel, and believe.
(Act 15:8) And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them
the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
(Act 15:9) And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts
by faith.
(Act 15:10) Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of
the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
(Act 15:11) But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ
we shall be saved, even as they.
(Act 15:12) Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to
Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among
the Gentiles by them.
(Act 15:13) And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men
and brethren, hearken unto me:
(Act 15:14) Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the
Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
(Act 15:15) And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
(Act 15:16) After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of
David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I
will set it up:
(Act 15:17) That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the
Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these
things.
(Act 15:18) Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the
world.
(Act 15:19) Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from
among the Gentiles are turned to God:
(Act 15:20) But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions
of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
(Act 15:21) For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him,
being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
(Act 15:22) Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church,
to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas:
namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
(Act 15:23) And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles
and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the
Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
(Act 15:24) Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us
have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be
circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
(Act 15:25) It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send
chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
(Act 15:26) Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord
Jesus Christ.
(Act 15:27) We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you
the same things by mouth.
(Act 15:28) For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you
no greater burden than these necessary things;
(Act 15:29) That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and
from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep
yourselves, ye shall do well, Fare ye well.
(Act 15:30) So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they
had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
(Act 15:31) Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.




Here we see the debate concerning observance of Old Covenant laws in the
Christian community come to a close, as far as formal decisions are
concerned.

The decision of the Apostles was that the Old Covenant laws did not apply to
Christians except for "meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from
things strangled, and from fornication." No mention of the Sabbath.

This is a far stronger argument than Adventism's argument from silence. This
is a list if things that Gentile Christians were told to do. If they had to
keep the Sabbath, then it would have to have been included in this list. It
was not included. That says a lot.

No even circumcision was necessary - and, if you recall from Genesis,
circumcision was a perpetual sign given for all generations! It was a sign
of the very identity of the Jewish people, under the Mosaic Covenant. And
here the Apostles stated that it was no longer necessary. Paul tells us that
there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile - it was not a case of
setting up double standards - one set of laws for the Jewish Christians, and
another for the Gentiles. Traditions and customs were tolerated, but
inflicting unnecessary practices was not allowed - so the Jewish Christians
could continue with their traditional way of worship as they felt
comfortable, but the Gentile Christians were not obliged to adopt the Mosaic
Law.

So, apart from these items on the Apostles' list, there were no parts of the
law of Moses that the Christians needed to keep. Obviously they still had to
follow moral principles as explained in numerous passages by Jesus and the
Apostles, but there is NO command to keep the Sabbath, and it is glaringly
absent from this list, which explicitly includes the sign of their identity,
circumcision, which predates the Sabbath.
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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add an s before .co.za
Stephen Korsman
2006-08-07 22:47:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Are you someone who has faith in Christ, and believes in sola
scriptura? If so, where is that?
You either don't know that Saturday is the seventh day of the week,
or are ignoring the entire OT and discounting everything the Lord said,
or
by that you mean a custom by God's creation and commandment?
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, AS
HIS CUSTOM WAS, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood
up for to read.
Mat 12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that
shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will
he not lay hold on it, and lift [it] out? Mat 12:12 How much then is a
man better than a sheep? Wherefore IT IS LAWFULL to do well on the
sabbath days.
Mar 6:2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the
synagogue: and many hearing [him] were astonished, saying, From whence
hath this [man] these things? and what wisdom [is] this which is given
unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
Luk 4:31 And came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them
on the sabbath days.
Luk 13:10 And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath.
Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as
I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love
SPEAKING TO HIS DISCIPLES (CHRISTIANS ALL OF THEM) OF ALMOST 40 YEARS
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on
Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; AND
RESTED THE SABBATH DAY ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT..
Act 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in
Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
Act 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because
they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read
every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
Act 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, ---> the
Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next
sabbath.
Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together
to hear the word of God.
Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him,
being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Act 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side,
where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the
women which resorted [thither].
http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/acts16.html

Act 16:13

(Act 16:12) And from thence to Philippi, which is the chief city of that
part of Macedonia, and a colony: and we were in that city abiding certain
days.
(Act 16:13) And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side,
where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women
which resorted thither.
(Act 16:14) And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city
of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened,
that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
(Act 16:15) And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us,
saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house,
and abide there. And she constrained us.




Acts 16:13 is different to the other references to the Sabbath in Acts, but
nothing in this text suggests this was a Christian worship service. Yes, it
was the Sabbath, but that is simply the day of the week on which it
occurred. Just like at times other days of the week are named, there is
NOTHING in this text that implies that this was a Sabbath service.
Christians can and do worship on ANY day of the week - this was nothing
special.

One Adventist made the following statement:

The KJV Bible refers to meeting by the riverside because of a lack of men to
build a synagogue.

Actually, the text says nothing like that. Nowhere in the KJV text do we see
something that suggests that the men were not available to build a
synagogue?

What we see here is a group of non-Christian Jewish women who had gathered
on the Sabbath to pray. The fact that Lydia is Jewish is proven by the fact
that she is called a " worshipper of God" but she is certainly non-Christian
because she is not yet baptised, and at that point, had not yet converted.
We are told her heart was opened to the Gospel and that she and her
household were then baptised.

In fact, she was still a "seller of purple goods" - that, if you research
what "purple goods" are, means that she made the special purple garments the
Levites and Pharisees wore, using a unique kind of dye. That was not a
Christian occupation - it was distinctly Jewish.

That means she was Jewish (it's unlikely a non-Jew would sell purple) and
not Christian prior to Paul preaching the Gospel to her and her acceptance
of it.

So, these are some of the Philippian Jews that Paul meets - so the primary
gathering was a Jewish gathering, not a Christian gathering. If it was a
special Sabbath gathering or not, we don't know - that much is not revealed.
But the text does not say that Paul was going there to worship because it
was the Sabbath, nor even does it say he was going there to worship. It does
say that it was the Sabbath, but the way that is mentioned in the sentence
indicates that the Sabbath was not related to his need for prayer, but
rather was mentioned to give us a time frame - where this all fitted into
that time. If Paul only ever prayed on the Sabbath, then perhaps this text
can be used as evidence of Paul's keeping the Sabbath - but I don't see any
evidence for that - the fact that Paul and his travelling party wanted to
pray does not make the day it happened on any more observed by him than any
other day.

In summary, this was not a Christian worship service, but a Jewish gathering
which Paul and his party came across.
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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add an s before .co.za
Stephen Korsman
2006-08-07 22:47:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Are you someone who has faith in Christ, and believes in sola
scriptura? If so, where is that?
You either don't know that Saturday is the seventh day of the week,
or are ignoring the entire OT and discounting everything the Lord said,
or
by that you mean a custom by God's creation and commandment?
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, AS
HIS CUSTOM WAS, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood
up for to read.
Mat 12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that
shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will
he not lay hold on it, and lift [it] out? Mat 12:12 How much then is a
man better than a sheep? Wherefore IT IS LAWFULL to do well on the
sabbath days.
Mar 6:2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the
synagogue: and many hearing [him] were astonished, saying, From whence
hath this [man] these things? and what wisdom [is] this which is given
unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
Luk 4:31 And came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them
on the sabbath days.
Luk 13:10 And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath.
Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as
I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love
SPEAKING TO HIS DISCIPLES (CHRISTIANS ALL OF THEM) OF ALMOST 40 YEARS
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on
Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; AND
RESTED THE SABBATH DAY ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT..
Act 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in
Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
Act 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because
they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read
every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
Act 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, ---> the
Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next
sabbath.
Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together
to hear the word of God.
Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him,
being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Act 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side,
where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the
women which resorted [thither].
Act 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three
sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/acts17.html

Acts 17:1-5, 16-17

(Act 17:1) Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they
came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
(Act 17:2) And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath
days reasoned with them out of the Scriptures,
(Act 17:3) Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and
risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is
Christ.
(Act 17:4) And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and
of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.
(Act 17:5) But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them
certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all
the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring
them out to the people.

(Act 17:16) Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred
in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.
(Act 17:17) Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with
the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.




Adventists state that it was Paul's manner to witness in the synagogue on
the Sabbath, and from that they conclude that he worshipped there too at the
same time. The text does not use the word "worship" and the word "manner"
does not imply worship either.

Why does Luke actually mention that this was Paul's "custom" or "manner" or
"tradition"? Luke is writing Acts for a Gentile Christian audience. Had they
been keeping the Sabbath, they would certainly not have needed such an
explanation, telling them that it was his custom to go there on this
specific day of the week. Why on earth would a Sabbath keeper, talking about
another Sabbath keeper, addressing Sabbath keepers, need to specify that
this was Paul's custom ? The answer - he would NOT have had to. From this we
can see that the readers of Acts (and Luke) are unfamiliar with the
institution of the Sabbath - they are not themselves Sabbath keepers. And
the interesting thing is that they are well established Christians of
Gentile origin, and Luke makes no attempt whatsoever to instruct them to
keep the Sabbath like Paul or Jesus - all he does is explain their actions
as being their custom. See also the section on Jesus' custom being explained
by Luke.

History and this text indicate to us that the Gentile Christians were NOT
Sabbath keepers, and that in order to not isolate them from Jesus and Paul
by attributing such a foreign practice to them, Luke states clearly that was
their custom, one word which explained to them the action, and at the same
time showed them that it was ONLY a custom and not a requirement that all
Christians were expected to observe.

Further, if we are to believe that Paul worshipped with the unbelievers in
the synagogue on the Sabbath, we should be consistent, and believe that he
did the same with the unbelievers he talked to in the market place.
Alternatively, we can believe that he was witnessing to unbelievers wherever
he saw the opportunity - in marketplace gatherings, or in the synagogues.
That is what the verse is telling us - about witnessing events, not
Christians worshipping alongside unbelievers.

Another Adventist argument is that by this time, 50 AD, it was "well past
any permanent change to the first day of the week that would have been
made."

This is entirely irrelevant. Assume scenario A: that the majority of
Christians already observed Sunday. Then Acts 17:2 is only saying that Paul
attended the Sabbath gatherings at the synagogues/temple because the Jews
gathered on this day. This is not refuted by the text, and is actually
supported by the rest of the New Testament where Paul denounces the Sabbath
observances - Rom 14, Gal 4, Col 2. Acts 20:7 also references a Christian
service on Sunday.

But assume scenario B, for which there is zero, zip, nil, no biblical
evidence - the Christians still observed the Sabbath as a law they were
obliged to keep. First, I can't accept this because of a complete lack of
evidence, as opposed to quite a substantial biblical backing for the
abandonment of the Sabbath and acceptance of Sunday. Second, does it make a
difference? It was only at the Council of Jerusalem that the issue of
circumcision was finally put to rest, and that was also around this time -
Acts 15. If circumcision could be abolished - by the power of the Holy
Spirit leading the Church to see the truth - then the same could happen at
such a date (even later) with the Sabbath. God did not change the Church in
a day - he let it grow, he nurtured it, and he taught it in HIS time. Those
who want to see Jesus abolishing everything and pronouncing everything we
need to know in the Gospels ignore the witness of the rest of the New
Testament as to the way the Church was built up by God - BOTH as the Chosen
People of the Old Testament, AND as the Ekklesia of the New.
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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Stephen Korsman
2006-08-07 22:47:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Are you someone who has faith in Christ, and believes in sola
scriptura? If so, where is that?
You either don't know that Saturday is the seventh day of the week,
or are ignoring the entire OT and discounting everything the Lord said,
or
by that you mean a custom by God's creation and commandment?
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, AS
HIS CUSTOM WAS, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood
up for to read.
Mat 12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that
shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will
he not lay hold on it, and lift [it] out? Mat 12:12 How much then is a
man better than a sheep? Wherefore IT IS LAWFULL to do well on the
sabbath days.
Mar 6:2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the
synagogue: and many hearing [him] were astonished, saying, From whence
hath this [man] these things? and what wisdom [is] this which is given
unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
Luk 4:31 And came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them
on the sabbath days.
Luk 13:10 And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath.
Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as
I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love
SPEAKING TO HIS DISCIPLES (CHRISTIANS ALL OF THEM) OF ALMOST 40 YEARS
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on
Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; AND
RESTED THE SABBATH DAY ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT..
Act 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in
Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
Act 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because
they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read
every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
Act 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, ---> the
Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next
sabbath.
Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together
to hear the word of God.
Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him,
being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Act 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side,
where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the
women which resorted [thither].
Act 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three
sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded
the Jews and the Greeks.
http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/acts18.html

Acts 18

(Act 18:1) After these things Paul departed from Athens and came to Corinth;
(Act 18:2) And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come
from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; because that (Claudius had commanded
all Jews to depart from Rome:) and came unto them.
(Act 18:3) And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and
wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.
(Act 18:4) And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the
Jews and the Greeks.

(Act 18:11) And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word
of God among them.




Yes, 72 Sabbaths spent preaching to unbelievers in a service organised by
unbelievers. That was not a Christian worship service. In fact, every single
such Sabbath gathering mentioned in Acts is of the same type - a
NON-Christian service that some Christians were also attending to witness to
those who had not yet accepted Christ.

If your local Adventist pastor spent 72 Sundays preaching to Sunday-keepers
in a Sunday-keeping church hall, would he be keeping Sunday? No ... by the
same logic, these texts are not evidence of Sabbath observance by Paul or
other Christians.

A Christian service is NOT a non-Christian service attended by Christians.
Just like a Catholic Mass is NOT an Adventist Mass when it's attended by
Adventists. Adventists would never call the Mass an Adventist service if
their pastor merely attended, but they don't want to same logic extended to
the Bible.

Next we must ask, what was Jesus doing by attending the synagogue on the
Sabbath, and what was Paul doing ? First, Jesus - remember that there isn't
a biblical command to gather together on the Sabbath (as far as I am
aware) - the command is to REST on the Sabbath, to keep it HOLY. Synagogue
attendance was not compulsory as part of a Sabbath obligation like
attendance at Mass is for Catholics on Sundays. The reason Jesus went to the
synagogue was therefore NOT as part of his Sabbath duty, but rather because
this was a convenient time to find all the Jews gathered together.
Generally, although not as part of their duty to obey the Sabbath
commandment, Jews gathered together in the synagogue to do Bible (Old
Testament) study and hear the preaching of the wiser men, like the priests.
Jesus was included in this group, as is seen in the text of the Bible, where
he gets up to read from the Bible (Isaiah) and gives a brief comment on it
afterwards. So attendance at the synagogue cannot be seen as obedience to
the Sabbath commandment - it was merely taking the right opportunity because
the Jews were all in one place on this day. YES - Jesus DID obey the Sabbath
commandment, but this is because he was still under the old law of Moses,
which included the ceremonial weekly Sabbath day observance. He kept the law
perfectly.

What was Paul's intent by attending the synagogue on the Sabbath ? As we can
discover from looking at Judaism from around that time, attendance at the
synagogue was not a part of the Sabbath day obligation to rest and keep the
day holy. It was merely a good opportunity for the studying of God's word,
and for hearing wise sermons. By attending the synagogue Paul was not
fulfilling ANY Sabbath day obligation to rest or keep the day holy. In fact,
the Bible reveals what the purpose of his visits were - to preach. This was
the perfect opportunity to preach to the yet unbelieving Jews about Jesus,
and since it was a time when general wisdom was shared and discussed, many
unbelieving Gentiles were in attendance too. Many Christians of both Jewish
and Gentile origin ALSO attended, no doubt, to a) spread the Gospel message,
b) hear the wisdom preached by Paul and the other Apostles. So Paul could
not have been fulfilling any Sabbath obligation by attending services on
Saturday - it is revealed in the Bible that his purpose was to preach. There
was no better time to do this - on Sunday through Friday the Jews would be
doing their own thing, and Paul could not preach to them as a group. On
these days, as one passage I think in Acts reminds us, he would often attend
general public meetings led by philosophers of other religions. No-one
claims that attendance at a Gentile religious discussion on a week day was
an observance of this particular week day, and therefore if Paul and the
Apostles preached to unbelievers EVERY day of the week, we cannot claim that
because they ALSO did it on Saturday, we must observe Saturday as holy.

We need to find in the Bible a specific day of the week which Christians
kept holy, on which Christians held PRIVATE worship services for Christians
only (Paul tells us that only Christians were allowed to partake of the
Lord's Supper.) We find NOT ONE text that tells us Christians observed
Saturday. Yet we find several texts that tell us that Christians DO NOT HAVE
TO observe Saturday - Gal 4:10-11, Col 2:16, Rom 14:5-6. Col 2:16 uses a
term that ALWAYS refers to the weekly Sabbath wherever else it is used in
the Bible, and tells us that the weekly Sabbath (as well as the other
festivals like Passover) are mere shadows of Christ. If we do not have to
keep the shadow Passover, why must we keep the shadow Sabbath ? After all,
God revealed both of these days directly through Moses.
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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Stephen Korsman
2006-08-07 22:47:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by I. B. Wonderin
THen, Why does Rome claim to have changed the Sabbath sanctification
to
Sunday, when that's not a command of God, or His Son, nor found
anywhere in the bible, and fills in the gaps with their traditions
and
commands and dogma, and why do you a Baptist obey them?
Rome didn't. Rome did nothing except re-create the Greco - Roman God
system
including the worship of Athena / Dianne.
"Of course, I quite well know that Sunday did come into use in early
Christian history as a religious day, as we learn from the Christian
Fathers and other sources. But what a pity that it comes branded with
the mark of paganism, and christened with the name of the sun god, when
adopted and sanctioned by the papal apostasy, and bequeathed as a sacred
legacy to Protestantism!"-Dr. Edward T. Hiscox, author of The Baptist
Manual, in a paper read before a New York City Ministers' Conference,
held in New York City, Nov. 13, 1893.
The first century church celebrated God on the first day of the week
Which Church?
You might wanta check out my answer to Stephen Korsman...
THE MYSTERY OF INIQUITY WAS ALREADY AT WORK:. The earliest reference to
sunday is Justin in about 140 AD who belonged to the Church in Rome.
The only other early quotes is from the Church in Alexandria. So you
have the Greek and Roman Catholic Churches doing this, while the rest of
the Christian Churches continued keeping the Seventh-day as Sabbath.for
centuries...
Sabbath is NOT and never was Saturday except by custom.
Are you someone who has faith in Christ, and believes in sola
scriptura? If so, where is that?
You either don't know that Saturday is the seventh day of the week,
or are ignoring the entire OT and discounting everything the Lord said,
or
by that you mean a custom by God's creation and commandment?
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, AS
HIS CUSTOM WAS, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood
up for to read.
Mat 12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that
shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will
he not lay hold on it, and lift [it] out? Mat 12:12 How much then is a
man better than a sheep? Wherefore IT IS LAWFULL to do well on the
sabbath days.
Mar 6:2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the
synagogue: and many hearing [him] were astonished, saying, From whence
hath this [man] these things? and what wisdom [is] this which is given
unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
Luk 4:31 And came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them
on the sabbath days.
Luk 13:10 And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath.
Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as
I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love
SPEAKING TO HIS DISCIPLES (CHRISTIANS ALL OF THEM) OF ALMOST 40 YEARS
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on
Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; AND
RESTED THE SABBATH DAY ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT..
Act 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in
Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
Act 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because
they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read
every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
Act 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, ---> the
Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next
sabbath.
Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together
to hear the word of God.
Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him,
being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Act 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side,
where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the
women which resorted [thither].
Act 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three
sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded
the Jews and the Greeks.
The Senenth-day Sabbath of the Decalogue was never changed by divine
authority, and
yet knowing that most of the religious world today keep the first day of
the week instead of the original seventh day, we are led to inquire, Who
did change the Sabbath? How has this change been brought about? If the
change was not made by Christ or His apostles, by whose authority was it
made?
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and
shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times
and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times
and the dividing of time.
While the New testament gives Christ's example and his followrs and
proclaims
Hbr 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Rest is Greek "sabbatismos" . As in: their remaineth a Sabbath keeping
to for the people of God.
http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/heb4.html

Heb 4:1-11

(Heb 4:1) Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering
into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
(Heb 4:2) For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the
word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that
heard it.
(Heb 4:3) For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I
have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works
were finished from the foundation of the world.
(Heb 4:4) For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise,
And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
(Heb 4:5) And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
(Heb 4:6) Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and
they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
(Heb 4:7) Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, Today, after so
long a time; as it is said, Today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your
hearts.
(Heb 4:8) For if Joshua had given them rest, then would he not afterward
have spoken of another day.
(Heb 4:9) There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
(Heb 4:10) For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from
his own works, as God did from his.
(Heb 4:11) Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall
after the same example of unbelief.




Hebrews goes through a list of OLD Covenant signs and compares them to the
NEW Covenant reality. If Hebrews is to be consistent in its treatment of
these OC signs, the Sabbath must be treated the same was as circumcision,
lambicide, and priests.

Adventists claim that the Sabbath is different in this case, that it
continues for Christians today, based on Heb 4:9.

Only by obliterating context can that assertion be made. Go back and read
this section quoted above. Then go and read the ENTIRE book, without
selective quoting, and see if you come up with the idea that the Sabbath is
the single exception to the Old Covenant symbols that are abolished, in
spite of the fact that the book treats it in exactly the same way as those
that are abolished. It compares the Old Covenant lamb sacrifice with Jesus'
death ... the former no longer applicable to Christians. It compares the
Levitical priesthood with the priesthood of Christ ... the former being no
longer relevant to Christians. It compares the Sabbath to our rest in Christ
... and, with no evidence whatsoever, Adventists claim that this is the
single exception within this book, when the book itself treats it exactly
the same as the rest? Sorry, but people who take the Bible for what it says,
and not what they want it to say, won't fall for that.

This text is proof once again that destroys the Sabbatarian point of view.
In verse 4, Paul (the author was probably/possibly Paul, and many believe
him to be Paul, so we will call him Paul) treats the Sabbath with such
nonchalance it is highly doubtful that he had any respect for it any
longer - he says in a blasé fashion, "somewhere" as if the actual
commandment which EVERYONE should have been able to reference in Exodus or
Deuteronomy was quite irrelevant. Every observant Jew, anyone who knew the
Bible at all, would know exactly where the Sabbath was given, where the 10
Commandments were! Why is Paul implying here that this is NOT important?
Such a casual remark about the Sabbath hardly fits in with the rest of the
claims Adventists are making about Heb 4:1-11.

Paul goes on to state that God set aside ANOTHER DAY - "TODAY". That is what
it says in the literal Greek. If we read the ACTUAL words of Heb 4:1-11, it
becomes clear that the Sabbath was for the Jews - quantity time, one
seventh - but TODAY - all the time, continuously, quality time - is for the
Christian.

Heb 4:10 is clearly talking of ETERNAL rest which we find with Christ. Where
Hebrews DOES mention a DAY, it is in 4:4 and 4:7 ... these are contrasted as
being the Sabbath given to Israel, and the "today" given to those who, after
Christ's atonement, accept the Gospel message. We therefore no longer keep
the Sabbath, we find our rest TODAY - and the text quoted by the author of
Hebrews, Ps 95:7-8, supports our view fully - this is a continuous call to
eternal rest, not a weekly reminder of a shadow for which we have already
seen the reality.

The Sabbath is not a commandment we have to obey. Circumcision is also not a
commandment we have to obey. Sacrificing lambs is also not a commandment we
have to obey. God gave all these commandments, but the New Testament shows
us (Acts 15, Gal 5:2, Col 2:14-17, Hebrews) that these things - Sabbath,
circumcision, lamb sacrifice, etc., are all fulfilled in Christ. They have -
as you said - been made FULL in Christ, so we no longer perform empty lamb
sacrifices, we no longer perform useless acts of circumcision, we no longer
keep worthless Sabbaths. Christ is our Lamb, Christ is our Sabbath, and we
are baptised into Christ instead circumcised.

The Sabbath, like the lamb sacrifices and the Levitical priesthood, is
abolished ... and that is exactly what the entire book of Hebrews is about.
ALL these things are abolished and replaced with something better ... the
lamb with the eucharist, the levitical priesthood with Christ's
mediatorship, and the Sabbath with a more perfect rest - eternal rest. So,
to Christians the Sabbath has as much relevance as the Levites and lamb
killing does.

Hebrews ABOLISHES the Sabbath!!! It tells us that while God gave OUR
ANCESTOR the 7th day, he gives US another day - TODAY.

One reply I got to this from an Adventist reads as follows:
Jesus did not, but "if" he did, "then would he not afterward have spoken of
another day?" If He did, where? Why wasn't Paul aware of it?

Paul is NOT saying, "then would he not have spoken of another day?" ... the
Adventist has adding a question mark to what the Bible has as a STATEMENT.
Go back and look in the Bible ... it is NOT a question. Then go and look in
MODERN English Bibles, and any other language you understand ... it is not a
question there. Hebrews is saying that if Joshua had not given them rest,
God would not have spoken of another day ... this shows that since Joshua
DID give them rest, God DID indeed speak of another day. Don't let
Adventists change the Bible ... accept it as it is.
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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vince garcia
2006-08-08 12:41:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Korsman
Heb 4:1-11
(Heb 4:1) Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering
into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
(Heb 4:2) For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the
word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that
heard it.
(Heb 4:3) For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I
have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works
were finished from the foundation of the world.
(Heb 4:4) For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise,
And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
(Heb 4:5) And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
(Heb 4:6) Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and
(Heb 4:7) Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, Today, after so
long a time; as it is said, Today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your
hearts.
(Heb 4:8) For if Joshua had given them rest, then would he not afterward
have spoken of another day.
(Heb 4:9) There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
(Heb 4:10) For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from
his own works, as God did from his.
(Heb 4:11) Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall
after the same example of unbelief.
Hebrews goes through a list of OLD Covenant signs and compares them to the
NEW Covenant reality. If Hebrews is to be consistent in its treatment of
these OC signs, the Sabbath must be treated the same was as circumcision,
lambicide, and priests.
Adventists claim that the Sabbath is different in this case, that it
continues for Christians today, based on Heb 4:9.
Only by obliterating context can that assertion be made.
...Or by falling prey to deception. The Greek, more literally, says:
“There is left off (or left behind) Sabbathing to the people of God.”
The problem is, this verse can be interpreted more than one way. The KJV
appears to be correct when it interprets this as saying a future rest in
Christ remains to the people of God, rather than that keeping the
Saturday Sabbath is left behind for Christians, because the word there
for "sabbathing" (sabbatismos) is never used elsewhere in the NT, but
ONLY HERE. Instead, Sabbaton is used nearly everywhere else in the New
Testament as a word for the Sabbath; and the writer’s going out of his
way to use Sabbatismos to refine his point as relates to the Sabbath can
reasonably mean that he is intentionally pointing to the specific REST
of the Sabbath, rather than the OBSERVANCE of the Sabbath, for which the
word Sabbaton is repeatedly used.

The writer is also affirming that entering the rest of God is through
belief, and uses the Sabbath as representative of the ultimate rest that
was coming through Christ’s work of redemption. Be careful, he points
out in verse 11, that you do not disqualify yourself from that rest--not
by profaning the Sabbath--but by unbelief!


Then, if we bother to go read Paul in Gal. 4:10, what do we see? We see
Paul criticizing the Galatians for keeping ALL FOUR FORMS of the JEwish
Sabbath: Sabbath days, months (the Jewish New Moon Sabbath), times (the
Moedim or “appointed times” of the Jewish Feasts), and apparently even
the Sabbath years! (There was such a year in AD 48 or 49, around the
time this Epistle was written.) Now there is nothing intrinsically wrong
with these observances, but the Galatians were keeping these ordinances
out of fear they would go to hell if they did not keep them (something
the Adventist suggests is the fate of someone who hears and rejects
their doctrine on the issue). In the case of the Sabbath year, some were
probably refusing to work and looked to the church to support them
during that year.

Once again, the notion of Sabbatarianism mixes Old Testament Law with
New Testament grace, and proclaims that is the true path of salvation.

The Sabbatarian just cannot get it...just cannot see that the whole
theological construct he is relying on was rejected by the church in
Acts 15 when they gave only NEGATIVE commandments to the new believers,
that in no way, shape, or form, would the gentiles be led into the
notion that their salvation was in any way tied to the performance of
POSITIVE comamndments like observing the sabbath.

And again, as I have repeatedly pointed out, the sabbatarian never seems
to really keep the sabbath the way the people who gave and taught the
sabbath said to. Do you drive to church on the sabbath? If so, we can
stop there--you have violated the command not to kindle a fire, nor
travel on the sabbath, so you have broken 2 sabbath commands right
there.

Do you ever cook on the sabbath? You have violated the sabbath.

Do you wash your dirty dishes on the sabbath? You have violated the
sabbath.

If it gets cold, do you turn the heater on or up on the sabbath? You
have violated the sabbath.

Do you ever go to a store of any sort to buy something on the sabbath?
You have violated the sabbath.

If you boss wishes for you to work at any point on friday night through
saturday afternoon, do you ever do that? You have violated the sabbath.

Do you feed a pet on the sabbath? You have violated the sabbath.

Do you ever visit relatives on the sabbath by driving over to them? You
have violated the sabbath.

You see, it's easy to be a hypocrite and CLAIM you keep the sabbath
because you go to church on saturday, but as I have said
before--whenever I examine the lifestyle of someone who claims to be a
sabbatarian, they NEVER keep the sabbath as the Scripture actually
COMMANDS them to...they simply claim that they do.

But wisdom is justified of her children
Stephen Korsman
2006-08-07 22:55:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by I. B. Wonderin
THen, Why does Rome claim to have changed the Sabbath
sanctification
Post by I. B. Wonderin
to
Sunday, when that's not a command of God, or His Son, nor found
anywhere in the bible, and fills in the gaps with their
traditions
Post by I. B. Wonderin
and
commands and dogma, and why do you a Baptist obey them?
Rome didn't. Rome did nothing except re-create the Greco - Roman
God
Post by I. B. Wonderin
system
including the worship of Athena / Dianne.
"Of course, I quite well know that Sunday did come into use in early
Christian history as a religious day, as we learn from the Christian
Fathers and other sources. But what a pity that it comes branded
with
Post by I. B. Wonderin
the mark of paganism, and christened with the name of the sun god,
when
Post by I. B. Wonderin
adopted and sanctioned by the papal apostasy, and bequeathed as a
sacred
Post by I. B. Wonderin
legacy to Protestantism!"-Dr. Edward T. Hiscox, author of The
Baptist
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Manual, in a paper read before a New York City Ministers'
Conference,
Post by I. B. Wonderin
held in New York City, Nov. 13, 1893.
The first century church celebrated God on the first day of the
week
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Which Church?
You might want to read your own quote.
"Of course, I quite well know that Sunday did come into use in early
Christian history as a religious day, as we learn from the Christian
Fathers
and other sources."
Dr. Edward T. Hiscox, author of The Baptist
Manual, in a paper read before a New York City Ministers' Conference,
held
in New York City, Nov. 13, 1893.
Post by I. B. Wonderin
You might wanta check out my answer to Stephen Korsman...
THE MYSTERY OF INIQUITY WAS ALREADY AT WORK:. The earliest reference
to
Post by I. B. Wonderin
sunday is Justin in about 140 AD who belonged to the Church in Rome.
The only other early quotes is from the Church in Alexandria. So you
have the Greek and Roman Catholic Churches doing this, while the
rest of
Post by I. B. Wonderin
the Christian Churches continued keeping the Seventh-day as
Sabbath.for
Post by I. B. Wonderin
centuries...
The first quote I can find noting a Christian gathering on the first
day of
the week outside of the Bible is dated about 100 AD. The epistle of
Barnabas damns as heresy the continuence of Sabbath keeping and it is
dated
early to mid second century.
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Sabbath is NOT and never was Saturday except by custom.
Are you someone who has faith in Christ, and believes in sola
scriptura? If so, where is that?
You either don't know that Saturday is the seventh day of the week,
or are ignoring the entire OT and discounting everything the Lord
said,
Post by I. B. Wonderin
or
by that you mean a custom by God's creation and commandment?
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and,
AS
Post by I. B. Wonderin
HIS CUSTOM WAS, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and
stood
Post by I. B. Wonderin
up for to read.
Mat 12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you,
that
Post by I. B. Wonderin
shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day,
will
Post by I. B. Wonderin
he not lay hold on it, and lift [it] out? Mat 12:12 How much then is
a
Post by I. B. Wonderin
man better than a sheep? Wherefore IT IS LAWFULL to do well on the
sabbath days.
Mar 6:2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the
synagogue: and many hearing [him] were astonished, saying, From
whence
Post by I. B. Wonderin
hath this [man] these things? and what wisdom [is] this which is
given
Post by I. B. Wonderin
unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
Luk 4:31 And came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught
them
Post by I. B. Wonderin
on the sabbath days.
Luk 13:10 And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the
sabbath.
Did Jesus only teach and minister one day a week?
Jesus kept the Sabbath lawfully in the true spirit as commanded by God,
as He said himself he kept all his Father's commandments.
But what's up with your protest here?
Don't you claim that when the early Christians broke bread on the first
day of the week that proves they were into Sunday keeping even though
there was no command of God to do so, and the new testament clearly
Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and
breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and
singleness of heart
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love;
even as
Post by I. B. Wonderin
I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love
SPEAKING TO HIS DISCIPLES (CHRISTIANS ALL OF THEM) OF ALMOST 40
YEARS
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither
on
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; AND
RESTED THE SABBATH DAY ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT..
Act 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in
Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat
down.
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Act 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers,
because
Post by I. B. Wonderin
they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read
every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
Act 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, ---> the
Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the
next
Post by I. B. Wonderin
sabbath.
Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city
together
Post by I. B. Wonderin
to hear the word of God.
Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach
him,
Post by I. B. Wonderin
being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Act 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river
side,
Post by I. B. Wonderin
where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto
the
Post by I. B. Wonderin
women which resorted [thither].
Act 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three
sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and
persuaded
Post by I. B. Wonderin
the Jews and the Greeks.
The Senenth-day Sabbath of the Decalogue was never changed by divine
authority, and
yet knowing that most of the religious world today keep the first
day of
Post by I. B. Wonderin
the week instead of the original seventh day, we are led to inquire,
Who
Post by I. B. Wonderin
did change the Sabbath? How has this change been brought about? If
the
Post by I. B. Wonderin
change was not made by Christ or His apostles, by whose authority
was it
Post by I. B. Wonderin
made?
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and
shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change
times
Post by I. B. Wonderin
and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and
times
Post by I. B. Wonderin
and the dividing of time.
While the New testament gives Christ's example and his followrs and
proclaims
Hbr 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Rest is Greek "sabbatismos" . As in: their remaineth a Sabbath
keeping
Post by I. B. Wonderin
to for the people of God.
Which is defined in the contextual reading as being a resting from
one's
works for righteousness, not keeping a particular day. Note
particularly
Heb 4:1-10 in continous reading does not support the keeping of the
Sabbath
day, but instead indicates the Sabbath is a shadow as per Col 2:16
When God rested from his six days of Creation on the Seventh-day, why
did he sanctify it and make it holy? When as yet, sin hadn't entered the
world, what was the signifigance of that day, how was it a shadow
pointing forward to the redemption of sin or a Messiah?
Easy - our rest in Christ. Hebrews 4:1-10.
Is there a difference between a memorial and a shadow?
For example is the Lord's supper a memorial or a shadow?
A memorial. And a shadow of what is to come - our heavenly feast in God's
kingdom.
Post by I. B. Wonderin
Wno is loyal to their Creator?
Can you tell me the Sabbath keeping God's people keep today?
NO church that I am aware of teaches the keeping the Sabbath taught in
the
Bible. At least no church of any size. Some go to church on
Saturday, but
that does not qualify as keeping the Sabbath by any biblical
definition.
How so?
Did Jesus give instruction on how to keep the Sabbath?

No.

So it's the only biblical instruction on this (Moses) or it's the biblical
instruction that we are free to honour God with whatever day we choose.

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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Stephen Korsman
2006-08-07 22:56:56 UTC
Permalink
http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/rom14.html

Rom 14:1-6

(Rom 14:1) Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful
disputations.
(Rom 14:2) For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is
weak, eateth herbs.
(Rom 14:3) Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not
him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
(Rom 14:4) Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own
master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able
to make him stand.
(Rom 14:5) One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every
day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
(Rom 14:6) He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he
that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that
eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not
to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.




Romans 14 lists two examples of spiritual weakness - and if you look at the
nature of the weaknesses you see that the weakness is in fact clinging to a
tangible means of pleasing God - avoiding meats was a special way of obeying
God, obtaining righteousness in his sight, and so was the keeping of certain
days. Paul tells us that while it may help spiritually those who wish to
participate in these spiritual exercises, they are NOT actual means of
obtaining righteousness, and those who observe these means are weaker in
their faith, yet they do these things unto the Lord. Those who are more
mature and can see past these physical attempts to please God are not
obliged to keep certain days or avoid meats. Since Paul was writing the
epistle to the Romans to a group of mixed Jewish and Gentile Christians
where there was a definite problem with trying to make the Gentiles observe
Jewish customs (e.g. circumcision and the Sabbath), it would have been
highly irresponsible of Paul to say this if he knew that what he was saying
was NOT true about the Sabbath - that the Sabbath had to be kept. Obviously,
in the absence of any specific command about the Sabbath, we must include
the weekly Sabbath in with the days that do not need to be observed by the
stronger members of the Church.

The important phrase is "Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."
If Christians were expected to observe the Sabbath, Paul would be
encouraging them to keep the Sabbath, trying to convince them of a certain
point of view, not giving them freedom to do what they feel is right. He
would not say that both those who ate meat and those who did not eat meat
both gave thanks to God, right alongside saying those who keep the day
honour God by doing so, and those who don't also honour God by not doing so,
if the Sabbath were indeed as important as Adventists claim it is.
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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Stephen Korsman
2006-08-07 22:57:41 UTC
Permalink
http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/col2.html

Col 2:16-17

(Col 2:13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your
flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all
trespasses;
(Col 2:14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us,
which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his
cross;
(Col 2:15) And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of
them openly, triumphing over them in it.
(Col 2:16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in
respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
(Col 2:17) Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.




Paul starts by mentioning that the law is nailed to the cross, and he goes
on to mention a few laws as examples. One law that he mentions is the
Sabbath. Sabbatarians try to argue that this word does not mean the 7th day
Sabbath in this context. That argument is unscriptural and illogical for two
main reasons.

First, the word used is the word used to describe the Sabbath. This word is
NEVER used to describe ANY other day, outside the five books of Moses. After
the time Moses wrote the books, the word Sabbath lost the meaning that it
had in terms of other days, and became used exclusively for the 7th day
Sabbath. Only in the earliest times were these days called Sabbaths. After
that they were called holy days.

The issue of whether the word is singular or plural is totally irrelevant,
because there are many places in the Bible where the plural and the singular
are used, BOTH describing a single Saturday, not even describing several
Saturdays, certainly not describing a collection of holy days. Col 2:16 uses
the word just as the rest of the Bible does - to mean the 7th day Sabbath.
To claim otherwise is to ignore the meaning of the word used and its place
in the language and grammar of the time.

Paul would never refer to these days as "sabbaths" because it was not part
of the language we wrote in.. Since the Greek and Hebrew of their day did
not consider the word "Sabbath" to describe these days, the Sabbatarian
argument is flawed.

Secondly, the whole term used refers to festivals and new moons and
Sabbaths. Take a look at all the times when this and similar phrases are
used, phrases listing various types of religious days. Each and every time,
this term refers to the religious days observed under the Old Covenant. And
if you look at what each subsection in the phrase means, you see that
festivals are the yearly holy days (Passover, Pentecost, Yom Kippur,
Trumpets, etc), the new moons are the monthly observance of the new moon,
and the Sabbath is the only thing left - exactly what the word meant in the
language of the time - the 7th day of the week.

Since he lists the annual festivals and the sabbath separately, the word
"sabbaths" clearly cannot mean "annual festivals" because then he would be
writing redundantly, and sound silly. Comparing the phrase to similar uses
throughout the Bible, this construct includes the annual, monthly, and
weekly observances of the Old Covenant.

(1Ch 23:31) And to offer all burnt sacrifices unto the LORD in the sabbaths,
in the new moons, and on the set feasts, by number, according to the order
commanded unto them, continually before the LORD:

(2Ch 2:4) Behold, I build a house to the name of the LORD my God, to
dedicate it to him, and to burn before him sweet incense, and for the
continual shewbread, and for the burnt offerings morning and evening, on the
sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts of the LORD our
God. This is an ordinance forever to Israel.

(2Ch 8:13) Even after a certain rate every day, offering according to the
commandment of Moses, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the
solemn feasts, three times in the year, even in the feast of unleavened
bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles.

(2Ch 31:3) He appointed also the king's portion of his substance for the
burnt offerings, to wit, for the morning and evening burnt offerings, and
the burnt offerings for the sabbaths, and for the new moons, and for the set
feasts, as it is written in the law of the LORD.

(Neh 10:33) For the shewbread, and for the continual meat offering, and for
the continual burnt offering, of the sabbaths, of the new moons, for the set
feasts, and for the holy things, and for the sin offerings to make an
atonement for Israel, and for all the work of the house of our God.

(Eze 45:17) And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and
meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons,
and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall
prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and
the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

(Hos 2:11) I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new
moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.

(Gal 4:10) Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

(Col 2:16) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in
respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

My interpretation is as follows:

festivals = yearly feasts

new moons = monthly new moon feast mentioned in Ezekiel and other texts

sabbaths = weekly 7th day sabbaths

Note that ALL are in the plural - so it is not unexpected to find the
Sabbath being plural too. In fact, the plural Greek word used, "sabbaton" is
a plural used in other texts like Matt 28:1, Luke 4:16, and in the
Septuagint, the version of the Old Testament the Apostles quoted from,
Exodus 20:8 and Leviticus 23:37-38. So this word "sabbaton" can and does
mean the 7th day of the week.

Also, the lack of a definite article in the original Greek also does not
prevent the word "sabbaton" from being translated as the 7th day Sabbath.
Matt 28:1, John 5:9, 5:10 and 5:16 all use the same term without the
definite article, and all of them DO mean the 7th day Sabbath.

In the original Greek, the word used by Matthew in Matt 28:1 is the SAME
plural Greek word SABBATON used by Paul in Col 2:16.

In the original Greek, the word used by Luke in Matt 4:16 is the SAME plural
Greek word SABBATON used by Paul in Col 2:16.

Therefore, SABBATON in Col 2:16 is to be seen in the same light as SABBATON
in Matt 28:1 and Luke 4:16 - as a singular.

See also the Septuagint, the version of the Old Testament the Apostles
quoted from, Exodus 20:8 and Leviticus 23:37-38.

I would like to know from you how you interpret each of those three types of
day mentioned in Col 2:16 - if the word "sabbath" means annual feasts, what
does the word "festival" mean? And what are your reasons for doing so? And
why is my reasoning wrong?

If it refers to the annual Sabbaths, Paul is really making silly mistakes
here - he would in fact be saying, "with regard to an annual sabbath, a
monthly feast, or an annual sabbath." To repeat himself like that makes no
sense.

Paul uses the term "festival" and the term "sabbath" in one phrase, so they
obviously mean something different in that phrase - they cannot be synonyms
if they are used in this way in one phrase. Paul lists three different types
of feast here - it would be absurd to claim he is talking about two types,
and just mentioned once twice.

Obviously, the word "festival" means something different to "sabbath" here -
"festival" means "annual feasts" and "sabbath" means the 7th day. Paul's
writing skills were not that poor.

Therefore we have to accept that the Sabbath is merely a shadow of Christ.
Now that we have the real thing in our lives, the Sabbath is no longer
obligatory for us as Christians.

Based on BOTH grammar and language meaning on the one hand, AND parallel
biblical examples on the other, we see that the only logical interpretation
of this text is to accept that the weekly Sabbath is indeed listed as one of
the precepts of the Old Covenant now nailed to the cross.

So far, all I can see is that Paul DID mean to refer to the 7th day Sabbath,
so we should accept that instead of fighting it. Often, I know, that is
hard, because we are brought up in a certain way, and it's human nature to
resist change. But take a careful look at the New Testament, and if you
really can find references to the Sabbath being necessary, to the Sabbath
being kept by Christians, I'd love to hear them - I cannot find any.

Col 2:16 says that the 7th day Sabbath is a shadow of something to come.
Elsewhere the Bible says it is a memorial of something past. So we seem to
agree, the 7th day Sabbath is BOTH a shadow of Christ (already come) and a
memorial of the old creation (which turned to sin.) The logical Christian
choice is to keep the day that looks forward to the NEXT coming of Christ,
and looks back on the NEW creation WITHOUT sin - Sunday.
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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