Let's Face It EGW is past use by date

[Stephen Korsman]

You've got some catching up to do, I see.
Masturbation causes zinc depletion, which can cause a whole raft of
ailments.

MY Goodness!! What about all the married couples who make love?
They must suyffer the same fate of becoming deformed, going blind, etc..
Seeing the same amount of sperm is spent.. that would have to be true
wouldn't it?
The amount of sperm you wouldf have to lose to cause deformities is so
massive that it is unlikely zinc would drop to those low levels.
If someone actually did achiueve that level of zinc loss, they would have
issues of compulsive obsessive behaviour to deal with rather than
masturbation.

And I don't guess you've been following the news about human DNA being
implanted in animal species? The reverse is also possible. They had lots
of science in former ages that has been lost, and now apparently
re-discovered.

Ellen White was not talking of DNA implanting, she was talking of the
physical act intercourse.
and where is evidence of this supposed superior science of ancient

mankind?

We have heaps of evidence of the history of our ancestors from

archaeology..

but not one bit of evidence of superior scientific ability.
There is also no record of it in the bible either.
As such I am not entertaining this folk lore.

If Ellen White is out of date, then so is the Bible, by at least 1700

more

years. The same Spirit inspired both bodies of writings, and He is

always

in the present. And the past, and the future.

The Bible is out of date in many places. The inspiration of the spirit was
not to give an infallible understanding of science.
The Bible is not a science text book
It is also ethically ourt of date in places. We no longer accept the
application of it's laws.
(e.g. Adulterers are no longer stoned, Homosexuals are not executed.

Sabbath

breakers are not put to death, etc...)
Scientifically amongst other things we now know that The sun does not

rotate

in the sky as in the Sotry of Joshua. We also know Rabbits do not chew

their

cudd and that there are no 4 legged insects, etc...
I am not disputing that our ancestors were inspired when they wrote the
scriptures..and one may believe that Ellen White was inspired, but we

should

not be bound by their faulty understandings of science.
Jeff

It's absolutely incredible to see Adventists defending Ellen White in this
way. The need to defend racist and absurd statements because she is an
inspired prophetess is greater than any logic they may possess.

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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Unfortunately tiome has caught up with Ellen White as we now know
Masturbatiuon does not cause deformities and Humans cannot mate with
animals.
I see the logic is brilliant where her followers argue that as Cain

was

cast out.. and as there were no other humans to mate with, he had to

mate

with animals and this caused coloured races.
Total nonsense belonging to a past era.

[Stephen Korsman]

You've got some catching up to do, I see.
Masturbation causes zinc depletion, which can cause a whole raft of
ailments. And I don't guess you've been following the news about human
DNA being implanted in animal species? The reverse is also possible.

They

had lots of science in former ages that has been lost, and now

apparently

re-discovered.
If Ellen White is out of date, then so is the Bible, by at least 1700

more

years. The same Spirit inspired both bodies of writings, and He is

always

in the present. And the past, and the future.

I have always had a hard time understanding why SDAs will denigrate the
Bible in order to defend their prophet. EGW can be shown to the open

minded

even among SDAs to be a false prophet, a product of her times, a

plagiarist,

and a liar. The study by Adventist Fred Veltman clearly established to
latter two points in the results of the Desire of Ages study commissioned

by

the SDA church.
---------------------
Question 3. "How do you harmonize Ellen White's use of sources with her
statements to the contrary? Do you think the introductory statement to The
Great Controversy constitutes an adequate admission of literary

dependence?"

Answer: I must admit at the start that in my judgment this is the most
serious problem to be faced in connection with Ellen White's literary
dependency. It strikes at the heart of her honesty, her integrity, and
therefore her trustworthiness.
Fred Veltman, Personal Postscript Desire of Ages Project, Ministry

Magazine

Oct 1990
----------------------
To put it bluntly, Fred Veltman in a study commissioned by the SDA church,
conducted at Pacific Union College in the 1980s, in response to Walter

Rea's

book (The White Lie) concluded that Mrs. White used so much material from
other authors that the Desire of Ages is derived rather than authored. He
further concluded that Mrs. White lied about using other sources.
The Desire of Ages Project tended to prove rather than disprove Walter

Rea's

book.
Some prophet, steals others material, makes false scientific claims, lies
about her work. Yes indeed a real prophet of God -----Not.

Adventist scholar Samuele Bacchiocchi on the Bible, defending Ellen White:

To illustrate this point, let us consider Paul's counsel found in 1
Corinthians 7:8: "To the unmarried and the widow I say that it is well for
them to remain single as I do." There is no question that Paul's terse
advice contradicts God's explicit statement: "It is not good that the man
should be alone" [Gen 2:18]. If God Himself stated at creation that living
alone without a marital partner "is not good," what business did Paul have
to encourage people to remain single like himself? Would it not have been
wiser for Paul to keep his personal opinion to himself?

Frankly, I wish that the Holy Spirit had restrained Paul from expressing his
personal views and also guided him to write with greater clarity on such
important issues as the relationship between law and grace.

It is evident that this is not the way God chooses to operate. He does not
suppress the individual freedom, even when writing about eternal truths.
What this means is that we do not reject Paul's writings and discredit his
ministry because some of the things he wrote are unacceptable.

All 3 quotes from his website at
http://biblicalperspectives.com/endtimeissues/eti_74.html

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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[Whazit Tooyah]

You've got some catching up to do, I see.
Masturbation causes zinc depletion, which can cause a whole raft of
ailments. And I don't guess you've been following the news about human
DNA being implanted in animal species? The reverse is also possible.

They

had lots of science in former ages that has been lost, and now

apparently

re-discovered.
If Ellen White is out of date, then so is the Bible, by at least 1700

more

years. The same Spirit inspired both bodies of writings, and He is

always

in the present. And the past, and the future.

I have always had a hard time understanding why SDAs will denigrate the
Bible in order to defend their prophet. EGW can be shown to the open

minded

even among SDAs to be a false prophet, a product of her times, a

plagiarist,

and a liar. The study by Adventist Fred Veltman clearly established to
latter two points in the results of the Desire of Ages study commissioned

by

the SDA church.
---------------------
Question 3. "How do you harmonize Ellen White's use of sources with her
statements to the contrary? Do you think the introductory statement to The
Great Controversy constitutes an adequate admission of literary

dependence?"

Answer: I must admit at the start that in my judgment this is the most
serious problem to be faced in connection with Ellen White's literary
dependency. It strikes at the heart of her honesty, her integrity, and
therefore her trustworthiness.
Fred Veltman, Personal Postscript Desire of Ages Project, Ministry

Magazine

Oct 1990
----------------------
To put it bluntly, Fred Veltman in a study commissioned by the SDA church,
conducted at Pacific Union College in the 1980s, in response to Walter

Rea's

book (The White Lie) concluded that Mrs. White used so much material from
other authors that the Desire of Ages is derived rather than authored.
He
further concluded that Mrs. White lied about using other sources.
The Desire of Ages Project tended to prove rather than disprove Walter

Rea's

book.
Some prophet, steals others material, makes false scientific claims, lies
about her work. Yes indeed a real prophet of God -----Not.

To illustrate this point, let us consider Paul's counsel found in 1
Corinthians 7:8: "To the unmarried and the widow I say that it is well for
them to remain single as I do." There is no question that Paul's terse
advice contradicts God's explicit statement: "It is not good that the man
should be alone" [Gen 2:18]. If God Himself stated at creation that living
alone without a marital partner "is not good," what business did Paul have
to encourage people to remain single like himself? Would it not have been
wiser for Paul to keep his personal opinion to himself?

They never consider context. Just imagine where the human race would be
today if God had said "it is well for him to remain single." Adam would be
sitting by his computer with no one to send an e-mail to, no one would
disagree with his postings on Usenet, he couldn't complain about his
employer, the freeways would be wide open, and there would be no long waits
at the airport.

Frankly, I wish that the Holy Spirit had restrained Paul from expressing his
personal views and also guided him to write with greater clarity on such
important issues as the relationship between law and grace.

The scriptures are imperfectly inspired? The scriptures include personal
opinion? Who is to decide what is inspired and what is merely opinion?
Doesn't this lead to one having a cut and paste Bible?

It is evident that this is not the way God chooses to operate. He does not
suppress the individual freedom, even when writing about eternal truths.
What this means is that we do not reject Paul's writings and discredit his
ministry because some of the things he wrote are unacceptable.

Unacceptable to who? It seems to be that "All scripture is God breathed"
according to Paul and that Paul's writings are considered to be scripture by
Peter.

If Mrs. White had written a few centuries earlier the SDAs would be trying
to explain that the earth really is flat.
--
WT

By this all men will know that you are My disciples,
if you have love for one another

All 3 quotes from his website at
http://biblicalperspectives.com/endtimeissues/eti_74.html
God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/
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[Stephen Korsman]

If Ellen White is out of date, then so is the Bible, by at least
1700 more years. The same Spirit inspired both bodies of
writings, and He is always in the present. And the past, and the
future.

As if God said Masturbation causes blindness, deformities and hairy
palms

I tried to make this text large enough to read on my monitor but its
hard to grip my mouse with all the short curlies getting in the way so
I used my tail.

some of her writings are informative though Teresita.
for instance to stop having deformities males must take Zince Supplements
Then we can go for it in marriage and solo without the side effects
described by Ellen. :)
I asked a SDA Pastor once when he said Zinc Deficiency through Sperm loss
was the result of Masturbation and cause of what Ellen White talked of.
I then said to him. "what about Women.. who dear ol Ellen said get

deformed

too? where is their Zinc Loss?"
He said "Do not be silly. It is proven Women do not masturbate or have
orgasms"
ROFL..
They really do not think this rubbish through.

This Adventist pastor was not familiar with the Scripures written by Ellen
White.

In her book, An Appeal to Mothers, p. 27, she gives this divine wisdom; thus
saith the Lord:

Females possess less vital force than the other sex, and are deprived very
much of the bracing, invigorating air, by their in-doors life. The results
of self-abuse in them is seen in various diseases, such as catarrh, dropsy,
headache, loss of memory and sight, great weakness in the back and loins,
affections of the spine, the head often decays inwardly. Cancerous humor,
which would lay dormant in the system their life-time, is inflamed, and
commences its eating, destructive work. The mind is often utterly ruined,
and insanity takes place.

Note that she is inspired, with no difference in quality or degree of
inspiration to that of the Bible:

"We believe that Ellen White was inspired by the Holy Spirit and that her
writings, the product of that inspiration, are applicable and authoritative,
especially to Seventh-day Adventists. ... We do not believe that the quality
or degree of inspiration in the writings of Ellen White is different from
that of Scripture." - http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/scripsda.html

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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[Teresita]

Post by Stephen Korsman
Females possess less vital force than the other sex, and are deprived
very much of the bracing, invigorating air, by their in-doors life.

Tell that to Ann Bancroft, Nadia Comaneci, Janet Evans, Chris Evert,
Peggy Gale Fleming, Dorothy Stuart Hamill, Billy Jean King, Michelle
Kwan, Martina Navratilova, Mary Lou Retton, Monica Seles, and Venus and
Serena Williams.

[Stephen Korsman]

Post by Teresita

Post by Stephen Korsman
Females possess less vital force than the other sex, and are deprived
very much of the bracing, invigorating air, by their in-doors life.

Tell that to Ann Bancroft, Nadia Comaneci, Janet Evans, Chris Evert,
Peggy Gale Fleming, Dorothy Stuart Hamill, Billy Jean King, Michelle
Kwan, Martina Navratilova, Mary Lou Retton, Monica Seles, and Venus and
Serena Williams.

And my favourite, Steffi Graf.

Perhaps some of Ellen White's vital force was knocked out of her by the rock
that hit her head, and she projected that to all other women.

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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[Whazit Tooyah]

Post by Stephen Korsman

Post by Teresita

Post by Stephen Korsman
Females possess less vital force than the other sex, and are deprived
very much of the bracing, invigorating air, by their in-doors life.

Tell that to Ann Bancroft, Nadia Comaneci, Janet Evans, Chris Evert,
Peggy Gale Fleming, Dorothy Stuart Hamill, Billy Jean King, Michelle
Kwan, Martina Navratilova, Mary Lou Retton, Monica Seles, and Venus and
Serena Williams.

And my favourite, Steffi Graf.
Perhaps some of Ellen White's vital force was knocked out of her by the rock
that hit her head, and she projected that to all other women.

Possibly an explanation of why she viewed sex as something so detestable and
sinful. Perhaps her brain was wired or rewired by the healing process so
that she got no pleasure from sex. It seems that in her writings that sex is
for procreation only, not recreation. No wonder James died at such a
relatively young age:-(
--
WT

By this all men will know that you are My disciples,
if you have love for one another

Post by Stephen Korsman
God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/
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[Teresita]

Post by Whazit Tooyah
Possibly an explanation of why she viewed sex as something so
detestable and sinful. Perhaps her brain was wired or rewired by the
healing process so that she got no pleasure from sex. It seems that
in her writings that sex is for procreation only, not recreation. No
wonder James died at such a relatively young age:-(

If religious people did not feel pleasure from sex, then they would not
view it as such a distraction from spiritual things and sexuality would
not be the sun around which spirituality orbits today.

[Stephen Korsman]

Post by Teresita
If religious people did not feel pleasure from sex, then they would not
view it as such a distraction from spiritual things and sexuality would
not be the sun around which spirituality orbits today.

"Let marriage be held in honor (esteemed worthy, precious, of great

price,

and especially dear) in all things. And thus let the marriage bed be

undefiled

(kept undishonored); for God will judge and punish the unchaste [all

guilty

of sexual vice] and adulterous."
Hebrews 13:4 AMP

Andrew, you're not trying to say that sex, in marriage, for other
purpose than procreation, is unchaste and adulterous, are you?

Absolutely not - that's the Catholic position.

You won't represent the Catholic position honestly on any issue.

http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/post/index/148/Andrew

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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[Stephen Korsman]

On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 20:05:47 +0100, "Malcolm"

"Teresita" wrote in message news

Somewhere along the way, religion stood up and said sexual
appetites either served procreation or they were a sin.

That's how it has been presented in Catholicism, as evidenced by
their policy on birth control, and requirement of celibacy for nuns,
priests and monks.

Monks and nuns renounce the world, so celibacy is an inherent part of

their

calling. It is obviously imractical and unfair to bring children into the
world when you have agree to live without material goods.
For a priest it is slightly different. Priests were banned from marrying

for

a lot of reasons, including the desire to avoid the emergence of a

priestly

caste, the need to protect church property, the desire to have the priest
devote his full attention to church duties. However it is purely a
disciplinary measure, in the same way that I am not allowed to hold paid
employment as a conditon of my research grant, civil servants are not
allowed to serve as directors of companies or stand for office, bank

staff

are not allowed to borrow money, and so on.

Celibacy is an institutional requirement, not a sacred one, right?

Yes. And it's not uniform throughout the Catholic Church - only part of it.
The Latin Rite is the most well-known in the West, and is often seen as the
same as the Catholic Church, but there are other Catholic Churches that
acknowledge the leadership of Pope Benedict XVI, and share the same
doctrine, and they have married priests. Celibacy is a rule for the western
Church only.

Then maybe that's why there are less and less men choosing to be
priests. You'd have to find someone who didn't feel the "calling" to
marry and have children.

There are good arguments that the lack of priests has nothing to do with
celibacy, and a lot to do with the history of poor education in the past few
decades. It's happened before, and turned around without celibacy being
changed. Changing the rule of celibacy would not solve that much. Of the
first half of this, I think they are probably right. On changing the rule
of celibacy, I don't know. It's not a theological issue, it's a pastoral
one, and whatever they choose won't bother me much. At the moment they
choose a position of not comprimising ... that may or may not change.

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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[Stephen Korsman]

Look at history. Promiscuity among young people exploded with the advent

of

the convenient little birth control pill. Since the first generation of
people who experienced sex without consequences has matured we are mow
seeing a second generation and even more teenagers having babies, plus a
plethora of STDs that weren't even heard of among the common people.

Well, if the fault were the birth control measures, then there
shouldn't be teenagers having babies. ;)
Years ago there weren't much care about condoms: STD weren't heard of,
and the existing ones weren't lethal. Hey, then that should be the
perfect situation to see promiscuity, right?
But you say that today, there's more promiscuity than before. But the
condoms just make our situation today as before: less worry aboput
STDs.
So what raised promiscuity in our society must be something else, not
condoms and pills.

Not directly. But the condoms and pills gave them the freedom to be
promiscuous without the risk of pregnancy. So, with more promiscuity, the
more STDs there are. Condoms protect against genital warts and HIV - but
not against other STDs. Interesting but not well known, because it's only
become clear with recent research. (Likewise with circumcision, except the
opposite has been shown - circumcision seems to reduce HIV spread, likely
due to reduced STD spread, which make HIV spread more likely. Would that
make circumcision a biblical health law that we should keep?)

The matter of whether sex should be open to generating new life aside,
without condoms, the world would have a lower STD rate. As for pregnancies,
that's debatable. But here's a nice example:

It has been calculated that condoms prevent 80% of pregnancies that would
have otherwise occurred, if couples use a condom 100% of the time.

Assume that the 100 couples below use no birth control other than condoms:

If 100 couples have sex regularly, and never use a condom, 80 couples will
experience a pregnancy within a year.

If 100 couples use a condom each and every time they have sex, 16 couples
will experience a pregnancy within a year.

If condom usage (by making sex safer in that sense, thereby giving a sense
of security) increases the number of couples having sex 5-fold, then 500
couples would be having sex with condoms each and every time they have sex
instead of 100 couples. Out of those 500, 80 couples would experience
pregnancy within a year of such activity - the same number as with 100
couples using no condoms.

If we consider that couples seldom use condoms 100% of the time (and that
can be confirmed by speaking to my patients, who are nearly all HIV
positive, and should know better, especially when their partners are HIV
negative, which isn't uncommon) then we can expect a bigger problem.

If we consider that most couples having sex in a condom-free society are
those who are married or who are prepared to take the risk of parenthood,
the increase comes from those who are not. And a lot of these are
teenagers. So we don't need a 5-fold increase to end up with condom usage
resulting in a greater overall problematic pregnancy rate.

This is almost certainly not as bad as the figures I produced above suggest,
because condoms are not the only contraceptive used. But condoms are not
going to prevent most of the STDs. Vaginal antimicrobicides, or
antimicrobial gel in condoms may. In my country, I don't see those used
much. And teenager access to methods of STD prevention more sophisticated
than condoms ... it exists, but I doubt it's effective in counteracting the
problem created by the sense of security resulting from "safe" sex.

The stats above are largely made up (the 80% pregnancy rate without condoms,
and the 80% reduction in pregnancy rate with condoms are not made up.) I
don't know what sort of increased sex rate there has been from condom usage,
and that doesn't particularly interest me. It may be 5-fold, or more, or
less. I am just trying to give an example of how condom usage can result in
us living in a fool's paradise.

Also, look what two other people did many years ago; they lived an

idyllic

life with no wants and no worries. Given the freedom to choose to remain

in

that idyllic life or to rebel, they chose to rebel, and mankind has

suffered

ever since.

They were tempted and misled. Blame the serpent, not the apple. If God
banned the apple instead of the serpent, that would simbolized that
God were banning our liberty.

That is a good point ... it's not the latex (or silicon) that is the evil
... it's the attitude of those using it. (I'm not going to get into the
issue of whether sex should be open to generating new life or not.)

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

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