Discussion:
The Sunday Sabbath is not Scriptural...
(too old to reply)
Stephen Korsman
2006-10-07 17:47:15 UTC
Permalink
Jesus said that "Sabbath was made for man (made to serve man), that
man was not made for the Sabbath (man was not made to serve the
Sabbath)
Exactly!!!
Mark 2, Matt 12, Luke 6

(Mar 2:23) And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the
sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of
corn.
(Mar 2:24) And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the
sabbath day that which is not lawful?
(Mar 2:25) And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he
had need, and was hungry, he, and they that were with him?
(Mar 2:26) How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the
high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for
the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?
(Mar 2:27) And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man
for the sabbath:
(Mar 2:28) Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

(Mat 12:1) At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and
his disciples were hungry, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
(Mat 12:2) But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy
disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
(Mat 12:3) But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he
was hungry, and they that were with him;
(Mat 12:4) How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread,
which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him,
but only for the priests
(Mat 12:5) Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the
priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless
(Mat 12:6) But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the
temple.
(Mat 12:7) But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not
sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
(Mat 12:8) For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
(Mat 12:9) And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue:
(Mat 12:10) And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And
they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they
might accuse him.
(Mat 12:11) And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that
shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he
not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
(Mat 12:12) How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is
lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

(Luk 6:5) And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the
sabbath.
(Luk 6:9) Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful
on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy
it?


Adventists claim that these passages show that the Sabbath is still in
effect, and Christians are obliged to keep it. They claim that Mark 2:27, in
saying that the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath, proves
that the Sabbath was not given to Israel alone, but to all mankind.

They are taking the verse out of context. If one goes back and read the
entire passage along with verse 27, one sees that Jesus was not speaking
about whether or not the Sabbath was made for Jews or for all mankind for
all ages and in all places. Jesus was accused of breaking the law in many
places in the Bible, and the Sabbath was one they often picked on him for -
here he is pointing out that the purpose of the Sabbath is to serve man, not
a case of man being made to glorify the Sabbath. By removing the verse from
its context, Sabbath keepers turn the meaning around. This is a
well-documented logical fallacy, called the false dichotomy. The verse, out
of context, is presented as presenting two points (the false dichotomy) -
the Sabbath was made for man, or the Sabbath was made for Jews. But in
context, the actual dichotomy is between the legalist/Pharisee perspective
(the Sabbath was more important than those keeping it) and Jesus'
perspective (the Sabbath was made to serve those keeping it.)

When Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man, he was NOT contrasting
mankind with Judaism. He was contrasting the LAW with MAN ... what he was
saying is that the LAW was made to serve MAN, NOT man being made to keep the
law. There is NOTHING about Jews or Israel AT ALL in this text ...
Adventists are reading something into the text that is not there, and, by
removing a statement from its context, making it say something that doesn't
even fit into the actual context at all. The Old Testament is explicit - the
Sabbath was made for Israel, and is explicitly called the sign of the Old
Covenant. We all know that this was abolished at the Cross. And the Old
Testament also tells us clearly that the Sabbath was given to MOSES, and NOT
before the time of Moses. That alone proves that the Sabbath was not given
to ALL mankind, because Adam, Noah, and Abraham never knew of it or kept it.
See the article here for more info on that.

Jesus is not saying that Christians must keep the Sabbath. That is taking
Jesus' words out of context. Does Jesus actually preach anywhere about the
future Christian Church and the laws it must keep? Such an idea is not found
ANYWHERE in this passage, or in the New Testament. What Jesus is doing is
instructing the Sabbath-keeping Jews of his day on how to deal with God's
law. They were legalistic, and put the law above love and mercy. Jesus is
turning that around, and saying that the Sabbath God gave them is not meant
as an end in its own right, but as a means to serve mankind. Jesus is
explaining that the Sabbath is a means for grace and mercy, and not what the
Pharisees made it into - the holy of holies, the final end of Jewish
worship. This principle is equally valid in ALL Christian denominations.
There is nothing at all in the text to suggest that Jesus is proclaiming
that the Sabbath will continue. He is merely using a real problem of the
time to expound a principle of mercy.

Jesus is actually discussing the law as a whole here - my reasoning is
twofold. First, the Pharisees were always trying to find him breaking the
law - the Sabbath, hand-washing, and so forth - and so this is just one of
the several instances where Jesus gives us insight into the true nature and
purpose of the law. Second, Jesus actually gives another example of
law-breaking unrelated to the Sabbath - David was so hungry he ate a certain
bread that could not be eaten by anyone other than the high priest. This has
nothing to do with the Sabbath, yet Jesus uses this example to prove that
the law exists to serve man, not man to serve the law. Based on this, I feel
that Jesus is not promoting the Sabbath at all here, and this passage
actually does not deal with the Sabbath's implications for Christians. All
that Jesus is doing is showing, using two contemporary examples, how the law
is meant to be used. So he is not making a statement at all about who the
Sabbath was given to - Israel versus mankind. The Bible has already spoken
on that - the Sabbath was for Israel. What Jesus is saying - as I see it -
is not about mankind's relationship with the Sabbath, but the relationship
between PEOPLE and the Sabbath - did people have to serve the Sabbath or did
the Sabbath exist to serve the people Jesus was speaking to? And this is
just one of several examples used to show the nature of the law.

What of the statements that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath? Adventists want
the text so say that because Jesus is "Lord even of the Sabbath", it means
that it is his special day. But just go back and read the entire passage -
it actually is saying that Jesus is ABOVE the law, that it is HE who
determines when a law is applicable, and when it is legalistic. Basically,
the text is saying NOT that Jesus' special day is the Sabbath, but that
Jesus is Lord OVER the Sabbath JUST as he is Lord over every other aspect of
nature, the law, and the universe, and he controls it completely.

Circumcision too was made for man, and not man for circumcision.
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

IC | XC
---------
NI | KA

add an s before .co.za
Zadok
2006-10-08 02:21:25 UTC
Permalink
"Stephen Korsman" <> wrote in message
Post by Stephen Korsman
Adventists claim that these passages show that the Sabbath is still in
effect, and Christians are obliged to keep it. They claim that Mark 2:27, in
saying that the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath, proves
that the Sabbath was not given to Israel alone, but to all mankind.
They are taking the verse out of context.
That is bullshit, and you know it clown.

NO WHERE does Jesus EVER cancel the Sabbath law.

He might say some things are legal on the Sabbath, because the religious
leaders of his day interrepted what could or could not be done on the
Sabbath.

Jesus tells us in Matthew 5: 17"Do not think that I have come to abolish
the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill
them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the
smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear
from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Got that?? Not one little bit of the law will change until Heaven and earth
disappear!!

Has Heaven and earth disappeared??

Then the whole law is still in effect!!

You want to argue that Jesus death cancelled that.

Then Jesus' death, cancelled all the law. And none of it is still in
effect!!

Which do you prefer.

All the law, or none of it??

Or maybe it's all in the now non-existent LIMBO??

Go away catho_lick boy!! You lack of understanding of Scripture is showing!!
Stephen Korsman
2006-10-08 15:26:04 UTC
Permalink
| x-no-archive: yes
| © 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no portion of this
| article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of the
| author
| >
| >> x-no-archive: yes
| >> © 2006 John Weatherly; all rights reserved; no portion of this
| >> article may be used elsewhere without express written consent of the
| >> author
| >>>>
| >>>>> Sabbath is for Jews.
| >>>>
| >>>>
| >>>> "REMEMBER THE SABBATH DAY TO KEEP IT HOLY"
| >>>>
| >>>> Ever hear of that commandment?
| >>>
| >>>
| >>>Yes, and Jesus said it was "FOR MAN"..not just the *Jews.*
| >>
| >> IT's not Godly, and it's not correct, and it's not honest to take
| >> quotes OUT OF CONTEXT, Andrew!
| >>
| >> You quoted out of context.
| >>
| >> Jesus said that "Sabbath was made for man (made to serve man), that
| >> man was not made for the Sabbath (man was not made to serve the
| >> Sabbath)
| >>
| >> Jesus also broke Sabbath REPEATEDLY.
| >>
| >>
| >> jw
| >
| >Jesus did not break the Sabbath, he broke the Pharisee's additions to
the
| >Sabbath.
|
| I give scripture. you give your mis-interpretations.
How about this spin?
For in six days God created the heavens and the earth and on the seventh
day He
rested. (Ex 20:11). In v 10 we see that this is not only for "man", but
also
sons, daughters, servants, ~cattle~ and "your stranger who is within your
gates".
You can interpret "stranger who is within your gates" any way you want to,
but
to say "cattle" is the same as "man" is rather Darwinian. In short,
everyone
was supposed to follow this command.
In Luke 13:14 the Pharasees added the idea that "healing" was now
considered
"work". v15 Jesus shows them what hypocrites they are for caring more for
watering the critters than to heal a human. Matthew 12:2, pretty much the
same
problem, Jesus pointed out that David, in need of food ate that which was
not
lawful for him.
In Exodus 31:15-17, the death penalty was attributed to Sabbath
violations, the
declaration that the Sabbath was to be observed "throughout their
generations as
a perpetual covenant" (which would seem to mean "never ends"); and the
sabbath
was described as a "sign between Me and the children of Israel forever".
So what can we conclude from this?
That if you are around Jews and its the Sabbath, you need to observe it
with
them.
Now, what is this scrapple over Sunday as the official Sabbath? The
early
Church often met daily.
Before tearing down a fence, it is often a good thing to find out why it
was
there in the first place. It seems that most of you folks here think that
Christianity has only been around since the day you were born, and will
cease to
be the day that you die. So why would folks over the centuries observe
the
formal mass/worship on Sunday? Read some history and then be privately
embarassed by what you learn.
I remember that we worshipped on Sunday and came back on Wendsday for
Prayer
Meeting and mid-week instruction. Is the Wendsday meeting heretical
according
to the seven day folks? You worship on a hebdomadal cycle because for
most
people there is a scheduling conflict with the other six days of work.
Hence
the blue-laws in many Bible belt states - to preserve the sanctity of the
seventh day of rest because many pagans have no respect for God's design
and
would have their employees in conflict with their worship schedule.
So those laws aren't designed to persecute Adventists??

God bless,
Stephen
--
Stephen Korsman
website: http://www.theotokos.co.za/adventism/
blog: http://www.theotokos.co.za/blog/

IC | XC
---------
NI | KA

add an s before .co.za
Loading...